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Everyone Plays The Taliban

December 28, 2008: U.S. plans to increase its Afghan troop strength are in flux. The most recent plans are to basically double U.S. strength there (from 32,000 to  60-65,000.) This would mean five or six combat brigades, an aviation brigade and lots more intelligence and Special Forces troops. This would mean about a dozen more battalions of U.S. infantry, as the new brigade structure has reduced the number of battalions from three to two. But each battalion now has four combat companies, instead of three. The aviation brigade has about a hundred helicopters (half transport, half combat). The new brigades also have more support troops (all trained to fight) attached.  It would take about 18 months to get all the new forces to Afghanistan. That would then result in a Western force of about 100,000 troops (62,000 U.S. and 40,000 NATO). In that time, the Afghans are expected to expand their own security forces (police and army), arm and train some tribal militias, to produce a total force of nearly 300,000 local and foreign troops and police.

Canada, and some other NATO members, object to the U.S. plan to provide weapons and training to form more reliable anti-Taliban militias. The U.S. and Britain believe these militias are an acceptable risk. All the dozens of tribes (and many more major clans) in Afghanistan have militias. These are usually very much "come as you are" operations, with men armed with their personal weapons, and leaders providing (if they are flush enough) vehicles, communications (radios, walkie-talkies, satellite phones, whatever) and other essentials (food, medical care.) Quality varies enormously. Those tribes or clans that are into the drug business are much better equipped (including protective vests, night vision devices and plenty of ammo.) The pro-Taliban tribes are not quite as well off, obtaining additional money from drug lords (for helping keep the police away from the drug operations) and Islamic charities (whose money is supposed to go for non-combat improvements, but often doesn't.)

Many NATO nations are appalled at the amount of corruption in Afghanistan, with tribal leaders often keeping most of the aid provided to their tribe, for themselves. These nations prefer to put more effort into cleaning up the government, police (which are notoriously inept and corrupt) and improving the army (which is pretty good, but small). But the Americans and British have worked with these tricky tribal situations often in the past. As the Brits like to put it, "who dares, wins." The Americans have decades of experience with the tribes, having been there since the 1980s, during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Europeans don't always trust American combat experience, it being an article of faith in Europe that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was a mistake, and winning that war was a fluke. Those lucky, but ignorant, Americans! The anti-militia crowd will lose this argument, but you'll see a lot about it in the media. Allies squabbling, whether real or imagined, makes for exciting news. But the basic American strategy is to play the game the Afghan way. The tribes are in it for the long haul, and will change sides if they sense they are losing. The Americans and Brits want to use superior firepower, mobility and cash reserves to flip as many tribes as possible, as quickly as possible, to hand the Taliban a very obvious, and well publicized "defeat."

The tribal militia strategy means getting involved with the many disputes between tribes. The Americans recognize that you cannot avoid these disputes. If you are in the area, the local tribes consider you a player. So the Americans want to play with a plan, and a strong hand. Many Europeans are aghast at this approach, but the Americans point out that this is what is. Wishing Afghanistan were less chaotic and easier to deal with will not accomplish anything. It's a nasty and unpredictable corner of the world, and if you want to win, you have to play by local rules. It would take generations to "civilize" the rural population to a European standard. A victory of sorts can be obtained much more quickly.  The U.S. is sending thousands of additional intelligence and Special Forces troops, along with new equipment that makes it easier to watch the ground below, and pick up enemy transmissions. U.S. intel forces have become quite adept at sorting out tribal politics. While the tribes of Iraq and Afghanistan are quite different, they share many similarities, and numerous American  intel officers, with lots of Iraq experience, have already done tours in Afghanistan. The Americans believe they have the knowledge, and experience, to play the Afghan tribes. In most cases, the enhanced tribal militias will mainly be for gathering better intelligence. The Western troops are still much better and (more importantly) reliable fighters. Afghan tribal leaders are notorious for looking out for their own best interests, and not digging in for suicidal last stands.

The U.S. sees the Taliban as a tribal confederation dedicated to opposing the central government. This has been a popular tribal activity for centuries. In the past, it was often the goal of the tribal coalition to capture Kabul (long seen as the national capital), and become the new central government. The Taliban have a problem in that they did this in the mid-1990s, and the government they established had, by the late 1990s, become very unpopular. Tribal leaders have memories, and are willing to use the Taliban (to keep the government from interfering with drug running, smuggling or whatever), but not be ruled by them. The Taliban try to collect a "tax" (about ten percent) in areas where they are strong enough to keep the police and army at bay. The Taliban also elect loyal locals as government officials, but play down the return of the Taliban controlling the central government. This is practical, because the majority of Afghans are hostile to the Taliban, and have recent experience to explain why. If ties to the Taliban become a liability, tribal leaders will cut them. This has been happening regularly for the last six years, and the Afghan government has a department dedicated to making and maintaining such arrangements. The new U.S. forces will be put to work giving these bureaucrats lots more work.

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st paul drummer    Cut Their Budget   12/28/2008 10:22:11 AM
Us Americans and our government need to rethink the drug war. One of the main Foreign Policy advantages of Drug Peace is the loss of funds available to the Taliban and other antagonists. I would guess the Taliban would lose 60-80% of ready money.
 
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WarNerd    st paul drummer   12/28/2008 11:47:40 AM
Only if the whole world legalizes heroin AND sets up a government subsidized distribution system with no questions asked.  You should also expect to have 10% to 20% of the drug addicts OD per year.
 
If you are talking about just the US ending it's war on drugs and setting up a distribution system, then the Afghan drug gangs would only see about a 20%-40% drop in income.  Large as their profits are, the vast majority of the money of in the drug trade is still in the downstream smuggling and distribution operations that will take most of the hit.  Also, most of the growth in illegal drug usage in the last 2 decades has been outside the US and Europe.
 
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colforbin       12/28/2008 3:11:04 PM

Us Americans and our government need to rethink the drug war. One of the main Foreign Policy advantages of Drug Peace is the loss of funds available to the Taliban and other antagonists. I would guess the Taliban would lose 60-80% of ready money.


i hate the drug war is as much as the next guy, but if you want to legalize heroin your fuckin gnuts
 
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Gerry       12/28/2008 9:37:49 PM
The whole strategy is getting ridiculous. Afganistan is not a country, it is a group of tribes who cannot even get along with each other. And here comes the US not only to unite and win the war against the people, but to get them all together to hold hands and sing Kumbiaya.
 
The solution is to surge, raid the tribal areas as well as all the terrorists holding areas, increase the Afganistan military, kill as many foreign terrorists as absolutely possible, and then leave.
 
Afganistan will revert to what it has always been, and kabul and Herot will join in , but with a better militia to protect their cities.
 
The Taliban will be happy with owning the countryside and the dope dealers, while the cities will enjoy the benifits of the tourists looking for cheap drugs.
 
Both will be aware that terrorists from foreign countries are not to their benifit. They will be able to live in cultural nirvana, and to continue to kill their next door neighbor in peace.
 
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Hurlbee36    Drum machines don't use drugs...   12/29/2008 1:20:40 AM
St Paul drummer: Like, stop hitting yourself with your sticks.  Besides, how can anyone take the good folks from Minnesota seriously when you give us a Senator like that angry porno-rama clown Franken? ehh?
 
Back to the strategy: I like it.  The tribes are independent (always will be) so let them defend themselves against the Taliban. And when they need help we can show them why they should stay on the side of the central government with an impressive light show followed by thunder and Taliban DNA scattering across the terrain.  As far as Canada and other NATO countries believing in disarmament, that only works when you have aggressive and well armed countries nearby to guard your borders for you - ahem.

 
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kerravon       12/29/2008 4:16:08 AM

The whole strategy is getting ridiculous. Afganistan is not a country, it is a group of tribes who cannot even get along with each other. And here comes the US not only to unite and win the war against the people, but to get them all together to hold hands and sing Kumbiaya.
 
I certainly understand where you're coming from. But then others will go even further and say "why do we need Afghans anyway?" and just nuke the people off the planet - "problem solved".
 
Why do any US soldiers need to die at all? And the answer to that goes back to what you're trying to achieve.
 
Would you like to see an Afghanistan that is a clone of Denmark or Taiwan?  Are you in any way worried about either of these countries trying to figure out how to harm you (or Israel or any other ally) or doing anything negative at all (like selling drugs or enslaving women)?  Presumably not.  So what's the reason those two countries sing Kumbiyah but the Afghans don't?  Solving that problem will solve the problem of the spontaneous creation of terrorists in the first place!  Rather than just treating the symptoms (random terrorists appearing in Afghanistan and the US), get right to the heart of the problem and rip it out.  Doing this will probably solve completely-internal US problems too.
 
Obviously it's not going to be done overnight.  But a start has been made, and there's some serious things kicking in (internet, modern education - unopposed by the Afghans), and if you really want, you can put a halt to all US losses tomorrow by simply returning to the forces used in November 2001.  It'll be more painful for the Afghans (and you may lose your good name amongst those who already like you), but given time, ANA victory is guaranteed, especially if the US then moves the current troops into Pakistan at the same time.
 
The solution is to surge, raid the tribal areas as well as all the terrorists holding areas, increase the Afganistan military, kill as many foreign terrorists as absolutely possible, and then leave.

Raids, increasing the Afghan military, and killing foreign terrorists are all being done already.  Not only that, but by being patient, it means that the Afghans are doing more of the work.  That has these benefits:
 
1. People are fighting for their own freedom instead of having it handed to them on a platter (some people (without evidence) say that that is a requirement for success).
 
2. Ju-jitsu (judo?) leverage - don't waste US resources on something that you can rope in Muslims (of all people) (believe it or not) to do themselves.
 
3. Don't accidentally start an unnecessary war with the Afghan people by being seen as invaders.
 
4. Get Muslims to start analyzing who they really hate ("infidels in New York" isn't the answer), given that they're fighting other Muslims in their own country - allying with those same infidels in the process.
 
5. You get to hang around to make sure democracy has a chance to settle in.  Democracy is good.  People in democracies don't tend to do stupid things (like growing drugs, building nukes) that get trade sanctions slapped on you or carpet bombing of your capital - dictators don't care.  America has a tendency to be "all or nothing" - when the last troops leave, they won't even send 100 FACs back in to support pro-democracy local forces.  Keeping US troops engaged is good.  Just as they put down a coup in the Philippines in Dec 1989 - THAT is the super-gold-standard - even better than the gold standard of Afghanistan Dec 2001.
 
6. Foreign aid that actually has an affect for a change.
 
7. You get to make the world a nicer place - some people like the idea of human rights, even for foreigners - and being slaughtered/raped by the neighbouring tribe is a violation of human rights.
 
 
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cwDeici       12/30/2008 3:20:41 AM




The whole strategy is getting ridiculous. Afganistan is not a country, it is a group of tribes who cannot even get along with each other. And here comes the US not only to unite and win the war against the people, but to get them all together to hold hands and sing Kumbiaya.


 

I certainly understand where you're coming from. But then others will go even further and say "why do we need Afghans anyway?" and just nuke the people off the planet - "problem solved".

 

Why do any US soldiers need to die at all? And the answer to that goes back to what you're trying to achieve.

 

Would you like to see an Afghanistan that is a clone of Denmark or Taiwan?  Are you in any way worried about either of these countries trying to figure out how to harm you (or Israel or any other ally) or doing anything negative at all (like selling drugs or enslaving women)?  Presumably not.  So what's the reason those two countries sing Kumbiyah but the Afghans don't?  Solving that problem will solve the problem of the spontaneous creation of terrorists in the first place!  Rather than just treating the symptoms (random terrorists appearing in Afghanistan and the US), get right to the heart of the problem and rip it out.  Doing this will probably solve completely-internal US problems too.

 

Obviously it's not going to be done overnight.  But a start has been made, and there's some serious things kicking in (internet, modern education - unopposed by the Afghans), and if you really want, you can put a halt to all US losses tomorrow by simply returning to the forces used in November 2001.  It'll be more painful for the Afghans (and you may lose your good name amongst those who already like you), but given time, ANA victory is guaranteed, especially if the US then moves the current troops into Pakistan at the same time.

 


The solution is to surge, raid the tribal areas as well as all the terrorists holding areas, increase the Afganistan military, kill as many foreign terrorists as absolutely possible, and then leave.





Raids, increasing the Afghan military, and killing foreign terrorists are all being done already.  Not only that, but by being patient, it means that the Afghans are doing more of the work.  That has these benefits:

 

1. People are fighting for their own freedom instead of having it handed to them on a platter (some people (without evidence) say that that is a requirement for success).

 

2. Ju-jitsu (judo?) leverage - don't waste US resources on something that you can rope in Muslims (of all people) (believe it or not) to do themselves.

 

3. Don't accidentally start an unnecessary war with the Afghan people by being seen as invaders.

 

4. Get Muslims to start analyzing who they really hate ("infidels in New York" isn't the answer), given that they're fighting other Muslims in their own country - allying with those same infidels in the process.

 

5. You get to hang around to make sure democracy has a chance to settle in.  Democracy is good.  People in democracies don't tend to do stupid things (like growing drugs, building nukes) that get trade sanctions slapped on you or carpet bombing of your capital - dictators don't care.  America has a tendency to be "all or nothing" - when the last troops leave, they won't even send 100 FACs back in to support pro-democracy local forces.  Keeping US troops engaged is good.  Just as they put down a coup in the Philippines in Dec 1989 - THAT is the super-gold-standard - even better than the gold standard of Afghanistan Dec 2001.

 

6. Foreign aid that actually has an affect for a change.

 

7. You get to make the world a nicer place - some people like the idea of human rights, even for foreigners - and being slaughtered/raped by the neighbouring tribe is a violation of human rights.

 


Removing all US troops would be stupid, but otherwise I agree with you.
I'd go as far as to say 'why do we need Muslims anyway?' but I'm a Christian so I think it would be nice to save them too, God wouldn't like it if we kileld them all I think. I agree we can change them, partly by making them do things for themselves, while helping them with others or helping them help themselves, but in the end they need God... Islam as a value system in particular won't change (it can't change for theological reasons).
The crusades were opposed by many Christians even at the time, but by and large Djihadis have never been opposed.

 
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cwDeici       12/30/2008 3:21:40 AM
Keep the troops in until you have a competent ANA, move into Pakistan, and somehow, some way, force them to quit being an Islamic Republic that executes Apostates and gays.
 
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kerravon       12/30/2008 8:46:37 AM

Removing all US troops would be stupid, but otherwise I agree with you.
Sure, if you're looking at maximum bang per buck, leveraging allies, you take a look at how much better things become as you add in each additional troop. E.g. quicker victory, more dead terrorists, simply by inserting a few special forces (instead of insisting that no US troops physically reside in the country). You also don't complain too much when my treacherous Australian PM decides to pull troops out of Iraq when allies have asked nicely for them to stay. At the end of the day, troops are fungible, so if he increases the commitment in Afghanistan instead, it is all just window-dressing for the treacherous (not me) Australians who voted for him.
 
I'd go as far as to say 'why do we need Muslims anyway?'
Also a perfectly legitimate position. If you are very confident that all Muslims in unison are trying to inflict harm on innocent non-Muslims/Americans, I do not think you should allow them to kill any more innocents (it is immoral to ignore the threat). That is why my position after 9/11 was more-or-less complete genocide of Muslims until someone explained why we should allow this threat to continue when we have the resources to eliminate it. I thought we might get some answers in Afghanistan and Iraq to that question. Only then when the bloggers came online (Iraq first) were we finally able to ask in an environment of freedom "why did you morons do 9/11?". And the answer from the Iraqis was more-or-less "um, you've come to the wrong country, try Saudi Arabia". Which is exactly why Iraq was the best choice. It had the least radicalized people there who could best explain whether all Muslims were enemies or not. Check out what Sarmad posted about when he made contact with Jews and other Muslims in chat rooms. Basically, believe it or not, we have pro-Israeli Muslims. Not a lot, but they exist (one of them even got a seat in the Iraqi parliament - Al Alusi). And if it is possible for this sort of creature to exist at all, there's no particular reason why you can't genocide all Muslims except them. Or - educate one lot to be the same as the other. Or start with an easier task - educate 50% of anti-liberation Iraqis to be the same as the 50% of pro-liberation Iraqis. If you just genocide everyone you will lose the ability to determine what is required to convert people like that. And the answer to that question may well teach you how to convert the criminals in your own country (which pose a far higher risk to your own family).
but I'm a Christian so I think it would be nice to save them too, God wouldn't like it if we kileld them all I think.
And I think you're a wonderful Christian, much like Bush, for thinking exactly that. If "love thy enemy" (a radical concept) has any meaning, this was the time. How can you love your enemy while still not allowing him to cause you harm? And you answered that already below - convert them (not even necessarily out of Islam - but just into Sarmad's camp - whatever the hell Sarmad and Al Alusi are - would be a good idea to ask?). Anyway, I decided to take that concept one step further. I decided that 9/11 was exactly a test from God to see who would live up to "love thy enemy" and who would just nuke everyone. While I initially talked about genocide rather than nuking, as soon as I was able to identify who needed genociding - and discovering as a bit of a surprise people like Sarmad who I didn't want to genocide - I took that "love thy enemy" one step further. I decided to become one of those pro-Israeli/pro-American Muslims. I took into consideration what sect these apparently good Muslims were already in, and then found a place to slot into. So now I'm a Muslim calling for the semi-genocide/conversion of the other "bad sects" (ie majority) of Islam. And like modern Christians, I have made use of the same rationale to take the literal bits of the Quran I don't like (most of it) and convert it to mean something that I do like. Oh, I don't do any of those stupid rituals like fasting during Lent, I mean, Ramadan, either. My sect has moved on (like your denomination has too no doubt).
I agree we can change them, partly by making them do things for themselves, while helping them with others or helping them help themselves,
Right!!! Totally 100% agree with you there. Honestly, it's great to find people who have actually thought up a strategy for winning the ideological war instead of just saying how bad the other side is (or denying reality).
but in the end they need God...
I don't understand what you mean here. They already believe in God. Just as the Christians who burned Heathens at the stake believed in God. Please explain this bit of your strategy.
Islam as a value system in particular won't change (it can't change for theological reasons).
Says who? I'd like you to try to find the daylight between Sarmad or "The Religious Policeman" from Saudi Arabia (see his blog) and yourself on practically any question of morality. Sure, these Mithal Al Alusi-like people only comprise 0.3% of Iraq judging by the election results (and Iraq is the best of all the Arab Muslims), but you will find that that bit of theological "information" is lost on them if you try to convince them to change their values to different from yours and more like the jihadis. You can talk directly to them (or you used to be able to, anyway). I have chatted extensively to them on blogs and IM, but the ones I used to talk to only occasionally appear online these days (like once in 3 months). You can talk to me (a self-identifying Muslim) instead if you want, but you'll presumably say that I don't count and that I'm really an infidel? In which case, if you're patient, give me a question and I'll pose it to Sarmad or Wasim next time I see them pop up. I am in almost daily contact with another Muslim - Waheed - from Afghanistan if you want a question posed to him. But he's a far cry from Sarmad or Al Alusi or the Fadhil brothers. However, if you pose some values questions to him, you will probably find that he's not far from your position. That's why he fought (or translated anyway) alongside infidel US troops rather than the Taliban.
The crusades were opposed by many Christians even at the time, but by and large Djihadis have never been opposed.

Which jihadis are not opposed? You think the Iraqis forming long queues to join the Iraqi security forces, the very next day after the previous line got blown up by jihadis, aren't opposed to jihadis? Man, I stand in awe of them. If you wish to take this to email (these forums are a bit difficult to have a long-running discussion in - and there's a good chance you won't even see this message), my address is mutazilah at gmail. Oh yeah, and dot com. :-)
 
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kerravon       12/30/2008 8:57:59 AM

Keep the troops in until you have a competent ANA, move into Pakistan, and somehow, some way, force them to quit being an Islamic Republic that executes Apostates and gays.

That "somehow, some way" is exactly the discussion I've wanted to have since 9/11, but haven't found anyone who is interested, much less with ideas of their own, which they've tried testing, or spent any effort on.  If only there was a Manhattan Project II where this exact question could be discussed so that our side, could like, win (radical!), the War on Terror, instead of merely treating the symptoms with bullets (which, let me make it clear, is better than doing nothing at all - it's just far far less than what SHOULD be being done - where's the friggin psyop running in advance of the Heathen-conversion?).
 
It's a bit like the fratricide thread I started recently - I just don't see anyone discussing how to make sure it Never Happens Again (or at least, pursuing that as a goal).
 
Or another discussion - which we just had above - the best way to do jujitsu leverage (as a goal for using limited resources available to maximum possible effect - all sorts of things that could be discussed/debated there).
 
 
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kerravon       12/30/2008 9:12:52 AM

move into Pakistan

Totally forgot.  I'm also in regular contact with a Pakistani.  He's online every couple of days.  He used to be an anti-American Muslim.  After I patiently went through his complaints, he is now pro-American.  Some time after that I believe he stopped being a Muslim (he didn't specifically say that, and I didn't specifically ask, but he started complaining about Islam (I had pointed him to some sites to read)).
 
Regardless, his *brother* is in the Taliban and got injured fighting in Afghanistan.
 
So if you want to do a reasonable genocide, you actually need to separate *individual family members*, nevermind just nuking an entire country (or any country that has any Muslims in it, for example).  The same thing happened in Iraq - you could get someone turning in his own brother.  And one of the Iraqis said that his father wouldn't tell him which of his relatives was involved in the insurgency otherwise he would turn them in. Basically killing all Muslims (including me) isn't really the right target.  If you want to genocide me, please explain why you think I'm a threat to you (rather than e.g. an ally) and I'll try to work through the issues with you so that you're either genuinely believe that I am not a threat (at least compared to your Christian/Buddhist neighbour), or else, dammit, I guess I will have to convert.  Is converting sufficient to avoid genocide or is the fact that I've ever been a Muslim an enduring unacceptable threat to you?  I'm willing to negotiate.
 
 
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Softwar    Lotus Eater   12/30/2008 10:43:11 AM
There is an alternative to legalization or the continued ground fight with drug money supported Taliban.  However, it has its own side effects....
 
We control the airspace already - spray the opium feilds.  We already have enough technology to develop specialized bio-warfare agents so working up a combo that attacks only the poppy plants is do-able.  In one stroke you could eliminate 70 to 80 % of the global opium output.
 
I am told the Bush admin. rejected the idea early on because the CIA convinced GW that spraying would topple the Afghan government and possibly destabilize the Paki government.
 
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Whispering_Death       1/2/2009 5:21:40 AM

There is an alternative to legalization or the continued ground fight with drug money supported Taliban.  However, it has its own side effects....

 

We control the airspace already - spray the opium feilds.  We already have enough technology to develop specialized bio-warfare agents so working up a combo that attacks only the poppy plants is do-able.  In one stroke you could eliminate 70 to 80 % of the global opium output.

 

I am told the Bush admin. rejected the idea early on because the CIA convinced GW that spraying would topple the Afghan government and possibly destabilize the Paki government.


From 1998 to 2006 Clinton and then Bush spent $7.1 billion on Plan Colombia and later Andean Counterdrug Initiative.  These two plans used the same strategy, the use of air-deployed chemicals to eradicate coca plants.  The results of a decade of this has been a failure.  Using high-resolution Satelite imagery, the CIA estimates that there has been no shortage of coca plants.  While the chemicals have been very effective in killing targeted fields, more fields are simply grown in order to offset the decrease and ensure a steady harvest every year.
 
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