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How Old Is Too Old

NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS

January 17, 2009: The U.S. currently spends $50-60 billion a year on nuclear weapons (the exact figure is classified). The U.S. currently has 7,000 nuclear warheads. There are another 8,000 out there (most of them Russian). Over 15,000 warheads (mostly Russian and American) have been taken out of service in the last fifteen years. The U.S. and Russia had so many because both nations had developed tactics that included attempting to knock each others land based missile silos out of action. Any exchange of that many warheads, even if only ten percent of them actually went off, would have destroyed Eurasia and North America. Those tactics are no longer popular, thus you only need a few hundred warheads to pose a credible nuclear threat. The U.S. and Russia have agreed to get try and get each of their warhead inventories down to 2,000 or fewer.

No new warheads have been built since the end of the Cold War (in 1989, when the communist governments of the Soviet Unions East European allies collapsed). Designing and building new ones is expensive ($30-40 million each), and nearly all the money spent on nuclear weapons each years goes to maintaining the available nukes. Those who maintain the current nuclear arsenal are eager to get some new ones, but are being told to just keep the old ones working. The case for a new warhead is that this would provide a nuclear weapon that is more reliable, less likely to go off by accident, cheaper to maintain and more difficult to use if one is stolen by terrorists.

Many of the existing warheads were manufactured in the 1970s. These are old, but like any piece of expensive machinery, they are carefully maintained. Parts wear out and are replaced. Most importantly, these warheads have been tested. So you can be sure that these weapons will explode when ordered to. Because of a 1992 treaty, nuclear weapons may no longer be tested, even underground. The new warhead designs would have to be "tested" via simulation. That is not a major obstacle. Simulation of complex systems is now quite common, and reliable. It's one of those unseen technologies that make life so much better for everyone. The nuclear weapons designers, however, believe they have discovered several flaws in the older designs, things that could be eliminated with a new warhead, even one that will never actually be detonated.

There are two other factors, that don't get mentioned as much in this debate. First, the labs and manufacturers who design and build nuclear warheads would like the work. Times have been tough for the nuclear weapons crowd since the Cold War ended. Since then, several treaties have been signed that reduce the American nuclear arsenal. Thus it is bad politics to try and get lots of money for new warheads. This is especially true because most people would like for there to be even fewer warheads. It's the old debate over "how many warheads do you need to get the job done." Most people agree that the answer is, "not many."

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jlb       1/17/2009 7:28:20 AM
The problem with simulations is, it only works within known parameters. Who has experimental data about 30-40 year old warheads?
 
And reality has a way of trumping theory that is sometimes  (often?) quite disconcerting.
 
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kisscatman       1/17/2009 1:10:36 PM
I disagree with the author when he says North America and Eurasia would be "destroyed" if only 10% of the warheads had been used.  This smacks of typical liberal ignorance and hysteria regarding the effects of a nuclear exchange.  There would be immense devastation, but radioactive fallout is greatly diminished after 2 to 4 weeks.  Urban populations and missile fields would be wiped out, but the U.S. and Canada is mostly rural.  Proper civil defense measures undertaken by the average Joe, would enable a restart of society.  Unfortunately, the U.S. government never really took this seriously, so it's up to the individual to become educated and learn to live under these conditions.  Don't live near cities or military targets.  Large runways and ports are also targets.  You CAN survive a nuclear war.  It'll suck, but you WILL survive.
 
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newjarheadean    like missile and bomber gaps   1/17/2009 4:39:23 PM
AHOY, kisscatman, Here! Here!
 
Example; SSBN 24 missiles, each with 8 warheads (information suggest there well only be 6 warheads per missile). With a 200 KT warhead detonated at one half mile altitude, (varying weather conditions and altitude would effect figures, however 1/2 mile produces max blast for 200 kt.) produces one half mile of severe damage, and 2 mile radius or 12.5 square miles of heavy damage, 4 mile radius or 50 square miles of moderate damage, 6 mile radius or 113 square miles of light damage. If one assumes a total of 192 warheads the total damage is 21,696 square miles. Hardly a single nation. If you double the warheads to 500 kt your at a total of 48,769, and with 1 MT warheads 72,960.

I once worked some figures for all the nuclear weapons on earth the result was that the war muggers could only destroy (with blast and heat effects) an area about 1 and a 1/3 the side of Africa. I might add hence all the debate during the cold war with all the nukes they had, on weather to go with a counter force or counter value strategy, i.e. IMO they could not do both. It's the little vials on the shelfs of the labs that keep WWIII at bay. G-day.

 
Quote    Reply

arodrig6       1/17/2009 5:32:57 PM

The problem with simulations is, it only works within known parameters. Who has experimental data about 30-40 year old warheads?


The Department of Energy National Nuclear Security Administration.
 
That $50-60 Billion on nukes supports a massive and continuous testing program to validate the stockpile through sub-critical tests, simulation, and analysis. Plus, we still have the nuclear test data from before the test ban. Also, we have made advances in a number of fields (basic physics, semiconductor fabrication, etc...) since we designed the warheads.  I'd be interested in the "flaws in the older designs" are and how serious they are...
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       1/17/2009 10:35:40 PM

I disagree with the author when he says North America and Eurasia would be "destroyed" if only 10% of the warheads had been used.  This smacks of typical liberal ignorance and hysteria regarding the effects of a nuclear exchange.  There would be immense devastation, but radioactive fallout is greatly diminished after 2 to 4 weeks.  Urban populations and missile fields would be wiped out, but the U.S. and Canada is mostly rural.  Proper civil defense measures undertaken by the average Joe, would enable a restart of society.  Unfortunately, the U.S. government never really took this seriously, so it's up to the individual to become educated and learn to live under these conditions.  Don't live near cities or military targets.  Large runways and ports are also targets.  You CAN survive a nuclear war.  It'll suck, but you WILL survive.
I agree. I have been often laughed at when the subject comes up, and I say people can survive with just a few steps they need to take for safety. (assumming one isn't in the blast area, and most people would not be) Most people are resigned to the doomsday scenerio where there will be nothing left worth living for or the fallout would kill everyone and every thing.  But many, many, would survive the worst of attacks, and many more with just a few precautions. Life will go on.

 
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Rick9719    Testing   1/18/2009 8:52:11 AM

It makes no sense to never test or replace any of our nukes.  Obviously nothing will change under this administration, but someday down the road we're going to have to revisit that treaty and allow for very limited undeground testing.

 
Quote    Reply

jlb       1/18/2009 6:19:51 PM




The problem with simulations is, it only works within known parameters. Who has experimental data about 30-40 year old warheads?






The Department of Energy National Nuclear Security Administration.

 

That $50-60 Billion on nukes supports a massive and continuous testing program to validate the stockpile through sub-critical tests, simulation, and analysis. Plus, we still have the nuclear test data from before the test ban. Also, we have made advances in a number of fields (basic physics, semiconductor fabrication, etc...) since we designed the warheads.  I'd be interested in the "flaws in the older designs" are and how serious they are...


I'm not saying that there's no data, but the point is, the warheads in inventory today are quite different from earlier generations, and while certainly a lot can be inferred from tests on the older ones, I'm not really sure anyone really knows for sure how the current ones are aging.
 
I may be a nitpicker, but we're talking very high stakes here, so I'm not very comfortable with this simulation business.
 
The only one person in the - marginal - know I've talked to made reassuring noises then shut down like a clam when I started asking pointy questions.
 
OTOH, it's still quite possible to just rebuild completely new warheads on the same plans and call it maintenance.
 
Quote    Reply

sjdoc    Nuke testing and the 'viros--   1/18/2009 10:41:34 PM
--
Despite the fact that there are technological, economic, and scientific reasons why the resumption of underground testing is both desirable and preferrable, there should not be forgotten the potential for testing these device in high cislunar space, if not on the moon itself.
 
The 'viro (aka "environmentalist") position contrary to nuclear weapons testing is emotional, not borne of genuine knowledge of matters like physics and biology.  Get it off the planet altogether (and, say, on the darkside of the moon or just beyond that visually obstructing celestial body) and these numbnuts would have a harder time of arousing the Confused Wool to opposition.
 
--
 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357       1/19/2009 12:02:59 AM

AHOY, kisscatman, Here! Here!

 

Example; SSBN 24 missiles, each with 8 warheads (information suggest there well only be 6 warheads per missile). With a 200 KT warhead detonated at one half mile altitude, (varying weather conditions and altitude would effect figures, however 1/2 mile produces max blast for 200 kt.) produces one half mile of severe damage, and 2 mile radius or 12.5 square miles of heavy damage, 4 mile radius or 50 square miles of moderate damage, 6 mile radius or 113 square miles of light damage. If one assumes a total of 192 warheads the total damage is 21,696 square miles. Hardly a single nation. If you double the warheads to 500 kt your at a total of 48,769, and with 1 MT warheads 72,960.

I once worked some figures for all the nuclear weapons on earth the result was that the war muggers could only destroy (with blast and heat effects) an area about 1 and a 1/3 the side of Africa. I might add hence all the debate during the cold war with all the nukes they had, on weather to go with a counter force or counter value strategy, i.e. IMO they could not do both. It's the little vials on the shelfs of the labs that keep WWIII at bay. G-day.


 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357    Your figures are wrong by 2x.   1/19/2009 12:04:28 AM

AHOY, kisscatman, Here! Here!



 



Example; SSBN 24 missiles, each with 8 warheads (information suggest there well only be 6 warheads per missile). With a 200 KT warhead detonated at one half mile altitude, (varying weather conditions and altitude would effect figures, however 1/2 mile produces max blast for 200 kt.) produces one half mile of severe damage, and 2 mile radius or 12.5 square miles of heavy damage, 4 mile radius or 50 square miles of moderate damage, 6 mile radius or 113 square miles of light damage. If one assumes a total of 192 warheads the total damage is 21,696 square miles. Hardly a single nation. If you double the warheads to 500 kt your at a total of 48,769, and with 1 MT warheads 72,960.



I once worked some figures for all the nuclear weapons on earth the result was that the war muggers could only destroy (with blast and heat effects) an area about 1 and a 1/3 the side of Africa. I might add hence all the debate during the cold war with all the nukes they had, on weather to go with a counter force or counter value strategy, i.e. IMO they could not do both. It's the little vials on the shelfs of the labs that keep WWIII at bay. G-day.






You overestimate, recompute.
 
Herald
 
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newjarheadean    Please I'm all ears...   1/19/2009 9:43:45 PM
AHOY, Herald1357; 113 square miles multiplied by 192 total warheads (given 8 warheads and 24 missiles) equals 21696. I have to remind you I can read now but without the spell checker I would not be able to communicate on the net. And I'm worse at math lol. So I'll ask you to explain to save me a lot of time. Maybe you are talking about my damage estimates got them from FEMA site, that being before Browny. lol. 
 
However my main point is that a nuclear exchange would not be all its cracked up to be. I have looked at these figures at one foot equals a mile, and get a big kick out of it (my gods eye veiw). Looked at the bombing campains of Veitnam too, basicaly each B-52 would damage a mile/foot long strip with 50 or so1/8 inch craters with 1/16 inch parapits, etc. this in a nation about 1000 miles/feet north to south 100 miles/feet wide. 6 bombers every other day or so and we were bombing them back to the stong age? not to over look the suffering of those the bombs landed onG-day! 
 
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