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Firmly Behind The Genocide Solution

November 5, 2009: Peace prospects between Israel and the Palestinians are bleaker than ever. The main reason for this is something that is rarely reported in the mass media; decades of really vile anti-Semitic propaganda in the Arab media (and now in many other Moslem nations as well). This propaganda calls for the destruction of Israel, not peace negotiations. This stuff is very nasty, so much so that even Arab editors know better than to let much of it appear on their English language web sites. But a lot of it does get onto English language sites (mainly pro-terrorist ones seeking support in the English speaking world), and it doesn't take much time, using a search engine, to uncover the stuff. The mainstream line on Israel is that peace talks are just a subterfuge to distract the Israelis, and weaken them, while preparations continue for a final battle that will destroy Israel and drive all the Jews from the Middle East. The Israelis know about all this, and have pretty much given up trying to get Western media, or politicians, to appreciate the real Arab attitudes, and go through the motions of negotiating just to keep their Western allies happy.

At the moment, there's no one to negotiate with among the Palestinians. Fatah has called for elections in January, to resolve the split between themselves and Hamas (which controls the 40 percent of the Palestinians that live in Gaza). But Hamas (which has lost much of its popularity because of its harsh and inept rule in Gaza), has refused to allow anyone in Gaza take part in these elections. So the elections will settle nothing. Arab diplomatic efforts to get Fatah and Hamas to reconcile have failed. So have efforts by Western diplomats. Hamas is fixated on its plans to destroy Israel, and imposing Islamic law on the people of Gaza. This leaves no time for diplomacy. To make matters worse, many Arab nations, are responding to the years of "kill the Jews" propaganda by passing laws against even negotiating with Israel, or having any contact at all.

Many Arabs view this situations with the Israelis and Palestinians more realistically, but there's not much they can do. Public opinion, and the politicians, are firmly behind the genocide solution. The only bright spot is a growing frustration, among Palestinian students, with the failed strategy of trying to destroy Israel. But these kids are not in power yet, and won't be even close for another 20-30 years. Unless there's some kind of Palestinian revolution first. But that approach has not worked well elsewhere in the Arab world.

Egypt continues to arrest Islamic terrorists, and seize bomb making material. These arrests are linked to Islamic terror groups that Hamas shelters in Gaza.

November 4, 2009: Off the coast of Cyprus, an Israeli warship sent commandos to seize a German container ship, that was transporting 500 tons of rockets, and other weapons, from Iran to Syria. Israel brought the ship to an Israeli port for unloading, witnessed by media. The weapons were meant for use against Israel, by the Iran backed Hezbollah terrorists in southern Lebanon. Iran denied any involvement.

November 3, 2009: The Israeli military has spotted Hamas testing longer range (60 kilometers), Iranian made, rockets. These tests were conducted by firing several of the rockets out into the Mediterranean. Israeli intelligence has warned, earlier this year, that such rockets were being smuggled into Gaza, via the tunnels. The rockets are broken into sections, to get through the tunnels, and then reassembled. Such rockets can reach Israeli cities, and would be used to cause civilian casualties (as they are unguided, and can only be aimed at urban areas.)

October 31, 2009: Police arrested a Jewish extremist, Yaakov Teitel, living in the West Bank, and charged him with several terrorist acts. These include the murder of two Palestinians, and the bombing of the home of an Israeli critic of the settler movement. Such extremists, who believe that Israel should include the West Bank, and other adjacent territories, are becoming more numerous, as more Israelis are frustrated by many failed attempts to negotiate with the Palestinians. But Israel, unlike the Palestinians, can control their extremists, if they have to. Otherwise, the Israeli extremists, who vote in tightly disciplined blocks, are allowed to expand their settlements in the West Bank.

October 28, 2009: Lebanese troops found four more 107mm rockets set up along the Israeli border, near the site of another rocket launching yesterday. The rockets were disabled. This is the fifth time this year that someone has set up or fired rockets into Israel. Groups claiming affiliation with al Qaeda have said they were responsible, but Lebanese police have been unable to track down the individuals responsible.

October 27, 2009: Islamic terrorists fired a 107mm rocket from Lebanon into Israel (which responded with some artillery fire.)

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Bob Cortez       11/5/2009 6:27:14 AM
In the West, when given a choice of tolerance or justice, they pick tolerance everytime, which puts the US feminists in the odd position of tolerating honor killings.
 
Goldhagen's new book raises the issue, but I wonder if anyone of his audience will connect the dots.
 
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trenchsol       11/5/2009 11:26:44 AM
There is no use for Israel to appeal to Western media or politicians when significant (not major) part of the population are antisemites.  I never understood why is that so. For example, my father was an antisemite, and we frequently clashed on that topic. He could never properly explain his attitudes, and kept referring to some vague international conspiracies. Interesting thing is that my father was highly educated person. Obviously, it was an excuse for something else. My father was very religious person, too (Roman Catholic), and, perhaps, that might explain something.
 
DG

 
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Photon       11/6/2009 1:05:52 AM
Probably difficult to undo lingering Anti-Semitism in the West, which still has substantial subscribers of Jewish conspiracy myths.  (Well ... how the hell can one do to shake beliefs that have been nurtured for ... how many centuries and still counting?!? )  Meanwhile, most of the Western governments have normal diplomatic relations with Israel, and the West's attitude towards the Jews and Israel have been rather mild, due to two historical circumstances:  1) Couple of centuries of worth of secularism (which paved the way to diminish the power of the Church) and 2) The shock of the Holocaust.  There have been far worse slaughters outside the Holocaust in known human history, but what makes the Holocaust unique is it has been far the best documented and witnessed, and its perpetrators happened to be on the losing side.  (Just darn too many surviving evidence to deny such an event has ever taken place among reasonable folks.)
 
Diminishing the power of the Church would be a big deal if I were a Jew, because of its implicit anti-Jewish attitude.  For example, try to do a sermon about the Christ's crucifixion.  A standard explanation would go something like ... a) The Jewish religious leaders could not stand Him ... b) They paid off Judas Iscariot to lead them to Him ... c) Arrested Him ... d) Accused Him of heresy, but could go no further on their own as the local Roman administration reserved the right to deal with punitive laws ... e) Tried to condemn Him, but Pontius Pilate (the Roman governor at that time) found no fault from Him ... f) Persisted in condemning Him and exploited the tradition of granting one prisoner to be set free by electing Barabas, not the Christ ... g) Off we go! ... h) It was the Jews, not the Gentiles who committed this falsehood!
 
(I personally find this line of explanation as self-contradictory, however.  As per Christian theology, if the Christ were the Savior of the Mankind, then would it be logically consistent for Him to be condemned to be put on the cross, whether He liked it or not and regardless of condemning an innocent being?!?  LOL.)
 
I think Israel has acted correctly by not trying to defend itself too much in the mass media.  First of all, the more Israel tries to defend itself, the more it will make itself look bad.  Furthermore, Israel obviously does not have initiative over today's media game.  (You know whatever dice you roll is loaded against your favor.  Therefore, the least thing you would want to do is to play the dice too much.  They control how the game is to be played out, not you!)  Now then, the future will depend a lot on the relative difference between 'loud mouths' and 'hard actions'.  The 'loud mouths' scenario would be better for Israel:  Sensational propaganda has a limited shelf-life as its novelty will wear out; a lot of talk rarely translates into getting results.  The 'hard action' scenario could be nasty.  The least common denominator among demagogues, radicals and terrorists is nihilism.  What is constructive about 'Destruction of Israel'?!?  It is both the means and the end.  There is nothing about a better world, let alone a better future, in this sort of nihilism.  If push becomes a shove, they will be quite happy wiping themselves out, as long as Israel is destroyed.  Senseless, but very nasty, as this sort of nihilism does not intrinsically draw a stop line.
 
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jastayme3       11/6/2009 8:03:19 PM

Probably difficult to undo lingering Anti-Semitism in the West, which still has substantial subscribers of Jewish conspiracy myths.  (Well ... how the hell can one do to shake beliefs that have been nurtured for ... how many centuries and still counting?!? )  Meanwhile, most of the Western governments have normal diplomatic relations with Israel, and the West's attitude towards the Jews and Israel have been rather mild, due to two historical circumstances:  1) Couple of centuries of worth of secularism (which paved the way to diminish the power of the Church) and 2) The shock of the Holocaust.  There have been far worse slaughters outside the Holocaust in known human history, but what makes the Holocaust unique is it has been far the best documented and witnessed, and its perpetrators happened to be on the losing side.  (Just darn too many surviving evidence to deny such an event has ever taken place among reasonable folks.)


 

Diminishing the power of the Church would be a big deal if I were a Jew, because of its implicit anti-Jewish attitude.  For example, try to do a sermon about the Christ's crucifixion.  A standard explanation would go something like ... a) The Jewish religious leaders could not stand Him ... b) They paid off Judas Iscariot to lead them to Him ... c) Arrested Him ... d) Accused Him of heresy, but could go no further on their own as the local Roman administration reserved the right to deal with punitive laws ... e) Tried to condemn Him, but Pontius Pilate (the Roman governor at that time) found no fault from Him ... f) Persisted in condemning Him and exploited the tradition of granting one prisoner to be set free by electing Barabas, not the Christ ... g) Off we go! ... h) It was the Jews, not the Gentiles who committed this falsehood!


 

(I personally find this line of explanation as self-contradictory, however.  As per Christian theology, if the Christ were the Savior of the Mankind, then would it be logically consistent for Him to be condemned to be put on the cross, whether He liked it or not and regardless of condemning an innocent being?!?  LOL.)

 

I think Israel has acted correctly by not trying to defend itself too much in the mass media.  First of all, the more Israel tries to defend itself, the more it will make itself look bad.  Furthermore, Israel obviously does not have initiative over today's media game.  (You know whatever dice you roll is loaded against your favor.  Therefore, the least thing you would want to do is to play the dice too much.  They control how the game is to be played out, not you!)  Now then, the future will depend a lot on the relative difference between 'loud mouths' and 'hard actions'.  The 'loud mouths' scenario would be better for Israel:  Sensational propaganda has a limited shelf-life as its novelty will wear out; a lot of talk rarely translates into getting results.  The 'hard action' scenario could be nasty.  The least common denominator among demagogues, radicals and terrorists is nihilism.  What is constructive about 'Destruction of Israel'?!?  It is both the means and the end.  There is nothing about a better world, let alone a better future, in this sort of nihilism.  If push becomes a shove, they will be quite happy wiping themselves out, as long as Israel is destroyed.  Senseless, but very nasty, as this sort of nihilism does not intrinsically draw a stop line.

It is not necessarily anti-Jewish to say that Jews are capable of doing bad things. Everybody is capable of doing bad things.
And if you were a Jew, would you wish to imply that it is a zero-sum game and we cannot live together? I am a Christian and do not believe that.
 
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Photon       11/6/2009 9:07:17 PM
It is not necessarily anti-Jewish to say that Jews are capable of doing bad things. Everybody is capable of doing bad things.  And if you were a Jew, would you wish to imply that it is a zero-sum game and we cannot live together? I am a Christian and do not believe that.
 
Unfortunately, that part of Christian theology is available, therefore, if there is someone out there who does not like the Jews, it is available for a kind of interpretation that suits his agenda.  It does not mean it is going to be invoked on an everyday basis or used in a very inflammatory manner, but it just happens that such a method has been historically tried and proven means to stir up resentments and hatred.
 
I am not too concerned about the question over can we coexist or not.  (Existence and related issues are heavily based on what we do, but much less based on what we say about, hear about and believe in.)  However, what concerns me is it is easier to imagine in negative emotions than to imagine in common goods.  Pessimism from my part, I guess ...
 
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Beazz    Photon   11/6/2009 10:13:22 PM
(I personally find this line of explanation as self-contradictory, however.  As per Christian theology, if the Christ were the Savior of the Mankind, then would it be logically consistent for Him to be condemned to be put on the cross, whether He liked it or not and regardless of condemning an innocent being?!?  LOL.)
 
This statement shows you have no clue whatsoever as to Christian theology. You obviously have no clue as to why Christ was sent, why he was crusified on the cross and why he arose 3 days later. Everything about Christ, from His birth to His death to His ressurection was and is completely logical. Had He not done this, YOU would not even have the chance to be saved from your obviously miserable and ignorant self. Stop trying to act as if you know something about Christian theology when it is obvious to anyone that does, you are clueless. Let me guess, Muslem ????
 
Later,
Beazz
 
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jastayme3       11/7/2009 12:47:01 AM

It is not necessarily anti-Jewish to say that Jews are capable of doing bad things. Everybody is capable of doing bad things.  And if you were a Jew, would you wish to imply that it is a zero-sum game and we cannot live together? I am a Christian and do not believe that.

 

Unfortunately, that part of Christian theology is available, therefore, if there is someone out there who does not like the Jews, it is available for a kind of interpretation that suits his agenda.  It does not mean it is going to be invoked on an everyday basis or used in a very inflammatory manner, but it just happens that such a method has been historically tried and proven means to stir up resentments and hatred.


 

I am not too concerned about the question over can we coexist or not.  (Existence and related issues are heavily based on what we do, but much less based on what we say about, hear about and believe in.)  However, what concerns me is it is easier to imagine in negative emotions than to imagine in common goods.  Pessimism from my part, I guess ...

Mr Photon, you said specificaly "Diminishing the power of the Church would be a big deal if I were a Jew" . That sounds like you do in fact think it a zero-sum game. That is a very offensive thing to say, and the only reason it is less offensive then when said to a Jew in the other direction is because because of historical circumstance. If you said it to an Armenian instead of an American Christian it would have a very unusual sound. Of course the attempt to diminish the power of THEIR church has already been made.
As for "that part of Christian theology being available", pardon me if I am reluctant to rewrite the Bible to suit the sensibilities of someone who wishes to "diminish the power of the Church". I have never gone to the effort to claim that Jews should rewrite their works even though some Rabbis in the past have(quite rationally if Jesus is not the Messiah)as I recall claimed that I am an idolator. Which is a far more serious allegation then the claim that corrupt Jewish clerical bureaucrats happened to arrange a murder two-thousand years ago. The reason I would not ask that is simply that, that is not the kind of thing one should monkey around with simply for good manners and doing so would be a lie. 
If, however by "that part of Christian theology" you mean the Christ-killer thing, yes it is "available".  As it happens Catharism is "available" too.
 
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Little Ray       11/9/2009 9:13:44 AM
Sorry.  You're wrong. 
Christians, esp. Evangelicals are among Israel's strongest supporters.  
If you want help Israel, you need to diminish the influence of the multi-culti human secularists.  They the true enemy of the Jews and Israel.
The funny thing is how many Jews in American seem to self-identify with this group....
 
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FJV    Where is the PR effort?   11/9/2009 1:30:49 PM
The Israelis know about all this, and have pretty much given up trying to get Western media, or politicians, to appreciate the real Arab attitudes, and go through the motions of negotiating just to keep their Western allies happy.
 
In my opionion the Israelis never started. We have a conflict here where one side (the Palestinians) are using effective propaganda and PR and the other side (Israel) is doing almost nothing. And now all of a sudden they are suprised about this result.
 
It's widely known a large part of these conflicts is about politics and with that about PR and yet somehow Israel is content with being sh%t at PR when it cannot afford to be. It can be argued that guys like Swithebull on forums like this for years have been doing more for making the case for Israel than the Israeli govt. has themselves.
 
I honestly don't understand why the Israelis continue to deny themselves effective PR/propaganda strategies for dealing with terrorists. Do you really want to beat these guys or not?
 
 
 
 
 
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Mikko    @FJV   11/9/2009 5:22:25 PM

The Israelis know about all this, and have pretty much given up trying to get Western media, or politicians, to appreciate the real Arab attitudes, and go through the motions of negotiating just to keep their Western allies happy.

In my opionion the Israelis never started. We have a conflict here where one side (the Palestinians) are using effective propaganda and PR and the other side (Israel) is doing almost nothing. And now all of a sudden they are suprised about this result.

It's widely known a large part of these conflicts is about politics and with that about PR and yet somehow Israel is content with being sh%t at PR when it cannot afford to be. It can be argued that guys like Swithebull on forums like this for years have been doing more for making the case for Israel than the Israeli govt. has themselves.

I honestly don't understand why the Israelis continue to deny themselves effective PR/propaganda strategies for dealing with terrorists. Do you really want to beat these guys or not?
That is indeed strange. What's behind that all? Four ways to look at it:
 
1) Israelis try but the western media is difficult to penetrate due to being so leftist minded (a popular theme on this forum and probably true for some part and for some media houses)
 
2) Israelis are too short on resources, too disfunctioning or too stupid to try well - or to try at all.
 
3) Israelis want to keep some assets in reserve. They know they could wage an effective media war but leave it as a weapon to be used when absolutely needed.
 
4) Israelis are actually wrong and their enemies are right. Israelis would speak for themselves but it's a lost cause to begin with. They avoid media wars because they are afraid they would start laughing in front of cameras.
 
(Okay, now is the time for someone who knows a lot more than I do to step up and say "No, you leftist worm! It is because they have not eaten their vitamins due to the vitamin embargo.")
 
Personally I am both sad and frustrated that Israelis always end up taking a beating in the western media. It seems to me like any business school graduate could execute a PR strategy better than they have now.
 
Mikko
 
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ker       11/9/2009 5:31:41 PM
Saying the Jews killed Jesus is like saying that the Americans killed Abraham Lincoln.  The people who killed Lincoln were Americans but so were his bodyguards and friends and a lot of people with no discernible involvement. 
 
A pattern is appearing.  One person complains about the actions of Hammas or some such group and another person jumps right in with "evidence" that Christians do the same thing.  The "evidence" is almost always old, as in more than 50 years ago or false. 
 
Christians do all kinds of bad things all the time.  My point is not to say that Christians are good but that these off hand comparisons and equivalences need to be examined in factual detail.  Or we could just stop making them all together.  That would be nice. 
 
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FJV       11/9/2009 5:45:42 PM
Technically the Romans killed Jesus.
 
 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       11/9/2009 6:41:10 PM
Dont take it personal, but Jesus was one in a long line of prophets that emerged from somewhere in the Middle East, are said to have yielded magic powers, and were executed because their believes
 
a) offended big parts of the population,
b) were against moral traditions and standards of the time,
c) angered authorities or the "establishment"
 
 
 
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RtWingCon       11/10/2009 2:48:01 AM

Sorry.  You're wrong. 

Christians, esp. Evangelicals are among Israel's strongest supporters.  

If you want help Israel, you need to diminish the influence of the multi-culti human secularists.  They the true enemy of the Jews and Israel.

The funny thing is how many Jews in American seem to self-identify with this group....


Exactly Little Ray.
 
PHoton-"and the West's attitude towards the Jews and Israel have been rather mild, due to two historical circumstances:  1) Couple of centuries of worth of secularism (which paved the way to diminish the power of the Church)"
 Rather mild compared to the Arab World? Yes, but the rise of secularism in Europe started with the French Rev and fueled anti-semitism even further over the centuries. Secularism does not lend itself to mild attitudes toward any religion, let alone Judism.
Christians who blame Jews for the Crucifixion of Christ are in a small minority. Also i find more Christian charities that support Israel than Jewish ones! To be fair, population size (Christian) would account for that. As for Jews, to be precise, people of Jewish heritage, like any group they have their faithful and have their secularists. The secularists of Jewish descent appear to me not to give two shakes about Israel. I would point to former mayor of NYC Ed Koch campaigning for GW in 2004 and admonishing the Jewish communities for not voting for candidates who support Israel. BAck to the article. My question for Israel is, why not focus on the Jewish communities around the world(US and EU) and get them more vocal about the bias? Get the communities to pressure the media?
 
One of the posters mentioned Israel hasn't started a media campaign yet in their view. I think they have a PR program albeit a small one or one in its infancy stage. During their campaign in Gaza they made great efforts to show why they bombed someone and how they conducted operations. That was all for western media consumption and it exposed the media's bias as well.
 
Or, again as someone else as mentioned, maybe Israel just gave up trying PR. So maybe they are waiting for the BIG showdown to settle it all.
 
Or, wait for the Euroweenies to have their own Muslim uprising, then "settle" with the palestinians. 
Finally, for those who believe Israel and Palestine can co-exist in harmony, take your head out of that bag of glue. Stop listening to Harvard Professors. Star Trek isn't real.
 
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flyingarty    Palastinians   11/10/2009 7:44:12 AM
The truth of the matter is that the governments cant control their own Muslim hate groups. Some of the hate groups even have large stakes in the government. Israel knows that. You can talk peace all you want with Lebanon or the Palastineans but they can not control their own people-therefore nothing changes.
 
From Obama's perspective, having Netanyahu as prime minister is a nightmare, he knows whats what. He would have done much better with the more concilatory Tzipi Livni-now Obama knows he he has a guy on his side that he cant control. Netanyahu has figured out all Obama is going to do is speak hashly-not much of a threat really, Flyingarty.
 
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