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Never Again?

August 28, 2009: Peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians remain stalled. The basic reason is that Israel will not accept a deal that destroys Israel, and the Palestinians will not accept a deal that doesn't destroy Israel. The Palestinians insist on the "right of return" (the 4.7 million descendents of the 700,000 Arabs who fled Israel in 1947 be allowed to return to Israel and become citizens). If allowed, this would destroy Israel, as a majority of the voters would be Arabs. Most of these potential returnees have not been allowed to settle down in the Arab countries they fled to, but instead must live in refugee camps. The Western nations, that push the idea of a peace deal, generally ignore the poisonous anti-Israeli atmosphere in the Palestinian, and Arab, world. All these Moslems believe that Israel should not exist, and must be destroyed. They pretend to be otherwise for the West, but their true attitudes can be seen in the Arab and Palestinian media.

Hamas fears that 5-10 percent of the 1.5 million Gazans support al Qaeda type organizations (that is, very conservative Sunni Islam, and the belief any Moslem who does not agree with them, is not a Moslem, and can be killed.) Few of these supporters are willing to act, so there are only a few hundred armed al Qaeda types in Gaza, and since Hamas recently killed 28 members of Jund Ansar Allah, no one wants to anger Hamas. It would be suicidal. But this has turned Hamas into a tyrant and religious bigot (enforcing conservative religious customs rarely seen before among Palestinians). This makes the al Qaeda supporters always ready to get violent, if persuaded to do so by exceptional leaders, or events. That's because the al Qaeda backers generally believe that Hamas is serving Israel, partly because Hamas negotiates with Israel and is seen as not militant enough against Israel and the West. Participating in elections is also seen as non-Islamic by al Qaeda, but democracy is popular with most Palestinians.

Hamas is fighting a low level war against Fatah in the West Bank, where the majority supports Fatah, but where Hamas has the support of 10-20 percent of the 2.5 million population. Hamas is a big believer in terrorism and assassination. So Israel is quietly providing some senior Fatah officials with additional security, meaning Israeli security people inside the West Bank, protecting Palestinian politicians from Palestinian assassins.

Rocket and mortar fire out of Gaza remains low, with only two rockets in June and two rockets and a mortar shell in July. Two mortar shells have been fired this month, along with several rockets (not all the ones that land in desolate areas are found). There are still Palestinian attempts to get through the Gaza security fence, or plant bombs along the fence (to kill Israeli soldiers who patrol the fence.) Israel also bombs tunnels every time rockets or mortars are fired, which discourages Hamas from these attacks on Israel. The smuggling tunnels are essential for the Hamas military buildup (larger and  longer range rockets, for the "final battle" with Israel.

August 24, 2009:  A Swedish newspaper admitted that, a story it published, where it's reporter in the Palestinian territories passed on an old Palestinian libel, that Israeli troops regularly killed Palestinians to steal their organs for transplants, was false. When the article was published a week earlier, there was outrage in Israel, and jubilation in the Arab world. The Israelis demanded proof, and the Arabs didn't care (and never did when it came to stories like this). The Swedes found that there was no proof, and the editor of the newspaper apologized. But Europeans are becoming more tolerant of these anti-Semitic slurs. Many Israelis see the pattern of violent anti-Semitism, which last peaked during World War II, building again, as Europeans become more tolerant of violence against Israel, and Jews in general.

August 21, 2009: Having seen Islamic terrorists increasingly use the ability to come from Jordan to the West Bank, and then into Israel, on tourist visas, Israel has stopped allowing anyone from entering Israel this way. This caused an uproar in the West Bank and Jordan, but terror attacks in Israel, is such a potent political issue in Israel, that the Israeli government knows that it cannot back down on things like this.

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BB45    Anti-semitism?   8/28/2009 1:32:39 PM
So are you saying that being against Israeli hatred of Arabs or against the parts of Israel's barrier wall that divide Palestinian communities or  against Israeli discrimination of Israeli Arabs is anti-semitic?  I agree that it's wrong for Europe to become "more tolerant of these anti-Semitic slurs."  But let's don't forget how harsh Israel is to it's own Arabs.  
 
I can be against Israeli discrimination and actual oppression of Arabs and still be for Israel.  But I fear this fine line is being obliterated by the extreme attitudes of today.   
 
Quote    Reply

Spiky       8/28/2009 2:03:16 PM
"Most of these potential returnees have not been allowed to settle down in the Arab countries they fled to, but instead must live in refugee camps."
 
Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other Arab countries are purposefully guilty of making the situation worse by not allowing the original Palestinians (their own kin) to settle down after they were INVITED to leave Israel when they became a nation in 1948. Problem is that some of these Arab Nations NEVER THOUGHT that Israel would survive a unified attack of combined Arabic Nations, and when Israel did, they could not send the Palestinians back. Sucks when war plans backfire on you.
 
Quote    Reply

stoker       8/28/2009 7:50:28 PM

So are you saying that being against Israeli hatred of Arabs or against the parts of Israel's barrier wall that divide Palestinian communities or  against Israeli discrimination of Israeli Arabs is anti-semitic?  I agree that it's wrong for Europe to become "more tolerant of these anti-Semitic slurs."  But let's don't forget how harsh Israel is to it's own Arabs.  

 

I can be against Israeli discrimination and actual oppression of Arabs and still be for Israel.  But I fear this fine line is being obliterated by the extreme attitudes of today.
______________________________________________________________
   
I can understand where you are coming from. and I appreciate the FACT that when Israel controlled the Gaza Strip it's Palestinian inhabitants were healthier, safer and lived a far better lifestyle than they do under the dictatorship of the evil Hamas.
The biggest problem we have and no-one seems to talk about it alot, is the fact the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are geographically separate entities and will NEVER EVER be a politically cohesive nation. It is, and always will be, impossible for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to become a Palestinian homeland. It will never happen.
There is no way possible, for Israel if it were to annex Gaza, to expel its Moslem population to another M.E. Moslem country, image the field day the 'useless idiots' in the left wing Western press would have,and it would be equally impossible for Israel to live in security and safety by giving these millions of Palestinians the 'right to return' by making them a citizens of Israel by default, by annexing them with the Gaza Strip, in to a Greater Israel.
It would be a death wish for Israel.
The major and on going problem we have is that there will NEVER EVER be a 'two State solution' between Israel and Palestine ( West Bank / Gaza Strip).
The fundamental reason for this is that, as Arafat proved many times, that the Palestinian's don't want a 'two State' solution and peace with Israel, they want to TOTALLY destroy Israel and its Jewish identity and homeland forever, end of story.
Until Obama and the U.N. understand this fact of life, the current status quo between Israel and Palestine will continue.
The only possible solution is quite simple, and has been put forth many times by far better qualified people than I, that Egypt absorbs the Gaza Strip and its fellow Arab moslem population in to Egypt, and Jordam absorbs the West Bank and its fellow Arab moslem population in to Jordan.
This simple action could be carried out in a couple of months, funded and organized by the U.N or fellow Moslem couintries such as Saudia Arabia.
No-one would have to move, The boundaries between Israel/Egypt/Jordan would only need minor re-adjustments, basically all the fellow Arabs involved are Sunni moslems and they basically speak Arabic and follow the same Arabian cultural mores.
All of Jerusalem as Israel's capital would no longer be a problem as Palestine would no longer exist.
Unfortunately, this dreamtime perfect solution has one major flaw, Jordan does not want the West Bank fellow arab Palestinians given citizenship in to a Greater Jordan, remember Black September, and they are trying to deny citzenship to the Palestinians living in Jordan as we speak, and Egypt wouldn't be overjoyed with the 'Hamas' in its millions teaming up with the Moslem Brothhood nutters they already have there.
Plus Jordan and Egypt, the same as every other Islamic entity, want one thing, for the complete destruction of Israel as an entity, and for the land occupied by Israel to be ALL returned to Moslem Arab ownership.
This is why 'Palestine' exists as an entity, to give the Arab Islamic countries a means to destroy Israel as a nation by claiming that these 'Palestinians' are the rightful owners of the land that Israel now calls its own.
We will continue to live in interesting times,and Obama and his 'two state' solution will gather dust till some other useful idiot comes along and we will have the same song and dance time all over again.
But, Israel will survive, and Israel will remain the Homeland of its Jewish citizens, protected by of the courage of the men and women of the Israel Armed forces and governed by the right of all Israeli's citizens to live in a free democratic Jewish nationhood.


  



 
Quote    Reply

smitty237       8/29/2009 1:23:14 AM
For me the Palestinians lost any sympathy I might have had for them on 9/11/01.  While several thousands Americans were perishing in a cowardly terrorist attack, regular Palestinians were dancing in the streets and rejoicing over what they viewed as our comeuppance for supporting Israel, or rather for not supporting their genocidal goal of wiping Israel off the face of the Earth.  As far as the Palestinians were concerned, if you weren't for them you were against them, and after 9/11 many Americans started thinking the same way.  On that day the Palestinians chose to cheer for the wrong side. 
 
Screw 'em. 
 
Quote    Reply

RtWingCon    amen smitty   8/29/2009 4:30:11 AM

This anti-semitism in Europe is apparent everytime the conflict flares up, at least in the press. But Europe's attitudes will shift the other direction once Europe's muslims start causing serious havoc on the continent. It's only a matter of time. Most of the time I really don't give damn about either side (Israeli spying/tech transfer or muslim BS), but with the advent of radicalism of the worst kind in islam, I'll with side with Israel as a barrier and foil for the radicals. Given how entrenched both sides are ( one will do anything to survive, the other wants total annilation), when will it all flash over? IMO- when hamas,fatah, hezbollah, syria, iran, etc,etc all decide to get along with each other, Israel will be attacked. Even if the palestinians win, the Arabs will still likely control Jerusalem as they had before. Palestinians are fckd either way and I for one can care less.

 
Quote    Reply

stoker    The only hope for peace in the M.E.   8/29/2009 7:06:58 PM
Default The Silent Majority

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War ll owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.


'We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.The average Japanese individual prior to World War ll was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilian s; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?


History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghan is, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems of expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world wide, read this - think about it - and send it on.


Emanuel Tanay,
M.D.Ann Arbor, MI
  
 
Quote    Reply

Photon       8/29/2009 11:11:32 PM
1.  As for the 'silent majority':  Either they do not care or too busy or defers the setting of their social direction to someone else.  That was the case before the 20th century, also within the 20th century, and also the case right now.  There is not a whole lot of historical evidence out there that would indicate changes in this persistent passivity.
 
2.  As for the 'fanatics':  The danger is when such fanatics acquire too much influence.  Not just in terms of propaganda, but something much more substantial, such as gaining control over a good chunk of national economy, whether by direct ownership or administrative web.  (Propaganda is like starting up a car, but the car needs fuel and other goodies to actually affect real world.)  Unfortunately, fanatics have a tendency towards 'blaze of glory' -- regardless of what kind of ideological or religious trappings they subscribe to, their core is ultimately nihilistic.
 
Quote    Reply

RtWingCon       8/30/2009 3:21:39 AM
High-tech bar
 
 A man walked into a very high-tech bar. As he sat down on a stool, he
Noticed that the bartender was a Robot.
 
 The robot clicked to attention and asked, "Sir, what will you have?"
 The man thought a moment then replied, "A martini please." The robot
Clicked a couple of times and mixed the best martini the man had ever had.
 
 The robot then asked, "Sir, what is your IQ?" The man answered "oh, about
164."
 The robot then proceeded to discuss the 'theory of relativity',
'inter-stellar space travel', 'the latest medical break through's,
Etc.......
 
 The man was most impressed. He left the bar but thought he would try a
Different tact.. He returned and took a seat.
 
 Again the robot clicked and asked what he would have? "A Martini please."
 Again it was superb. The robot again asked "what is your IQ sir?"
 
 This time the man answered, "Oh about 100". So the robot started
Discussing Nascar racing, the latest basketball scores, and what to expect
The Dodgers to do this weekend.
 
 
 The guy had to try it one more time. So he left, returned and took a
Stool.... Again a martini, and the question, "What is your IQ?"?
 
 This time the man drawled out: "Uh..... 'bout 50".
 
 The robot clicked then leaned close and very slowly asked,
 
 "A-r-e
 y-o-u
 p-e-o-p-l-e
 s-t-i-l-l
 h-a-p-p-y
 w-i-t-h
 O-B-A-M-A ??"
 
Quote    Reply

RtWingCon    silent majority   8/30/2009 3:40:34 AM
Good points to always remember stoker. This Islamic silent majority really isn't too silent though. When they speak up rarely do they condemn without disclaimers. Such as the "west doesn't understsnd", "what do we expect them to do", "we have to expect such attacks because blah blah, etc,etc. All I hear from the "sane/silent" muslim groups is rationalizing the attacks as politely as possible. This is why I no longer have any sympathy with any them. The PC police in the press here in the west are cowards. Let's call the radicals for what they are - a CULT. If al qaeda were CHristians, you can bet your ass they would be considered and labeled a cult, and rightly so. Maybe their whole religion is a cult, once in, you can't leave without a death penalty. But we want their oil, so we put up with it, which BS too. CAn't wait for their oil to run out, then what are they going to do?
 
Quote    Reply

Photon       8/30/2009 10:50:18 PM
But we want their oil, so we put up with it, which BS too. CAn't wait for their oil to run out, then what are they going to do?

I think we have already seen what can happen to places where there is simply not enough material goodies there to blink foreign attention:  Much of Sub-Sarahan Africa.  Exceptions are places like southern Sudan and Nigeria because they have oil, something everyone from Americans to Chinese would be very much interested in.  But for the rest?  What did outsiders do once the 1994 Rwandan genocide got started?  Since there was nothing worth a bloody darn to protect (from outsiders' point of view), nobody cared.  To make their plight even worse, they do not even have an ounce of political stability that Middle East has.  (Not that Middle East is much better, but their political situation is nowhere as bleak, compared to much of Sub-Sarahan Africa.)
 
As for Islamic fanaticism, obviously it has the necessary ingredients:  a) Oil money (even harebrained ideas require down payment from somewhere); b) Centuries of Islamocentric worldview which was challenged only towards the post-WW2 world (a massive culture shock ... acutually it was first challenged in the era of 13th century Mongol invasions, but once the Mongols stopped expanding, things calmed down); c) Tendency towards digging up past glories and over-identification of centuries-long deep-seated religion in the face of chaos due to rapidly changing world.
 
Quote    Reply

sijoint    BB45, you gotta be joking, right?..   8/31/2009 8:59:51 PM
You must be joking, BB45. "Israeli hatred of Arabs"? I'm sure no love is lost towards those who blow up civilian buses and pizzarias, but I think you are misguided at best.

In Israel...
-There are Arab parties, that routinely vote against the government and travel and meet with Syria and other Enemy States.
- Muslims are free to worship in numerous mosques, unimpeded.
-Arabs publish, protest, congregate and demonstrate, generally with a much prettier ending than what we recently saw in their fellow Islamic Iran. Or Hama, Syria 1982.  Or Algeria. Or Yemen, now. As long as they are conducted non-violently, "Death to Israel" marches won't get you a machine-gun volley. In Israel.
 
Can Arabs publish, protest, congregate and demonstrate against the government in Syria, Egypt, Yemen, or Algeria without getting massacred? Can Jews walk down the streets of Riyadh or Amman with a yarmulke on their head and enter to pray in a synagogue freely?  The local kids would be playing soccer with those Jewish heads. Hell, I remember GI's being told not to conduct outside Christmas celebrations in Gulf War I for fear of 'offending' Saudi Arabians.. the people we were alledgedly defending!
 
Any Israeli discrimination against Arabs pales in comparison with the way Arab governments treat their own Arab citizens, let alone Jewish ones.
 
 
Quote    Reply

jastayme3       9/21/2009 2:33:55 PM

Default The Silent Majority




A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War ll owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.





'We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.The average Japanese individual prior to World War ll was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilian s; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?





History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghan is, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems of expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world wide, read this - think about it - and send it on.





Emanuel Tanay,

M.D.Ann Arbor, MI


  




The vast majority of almost anyone wants to live in peace. It is conspicuously safer. The question is whether they wish their neighbors to live in peace.
 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       9/21/2009 3:50:28 PM
The prior assertion that the majority of muslims are peaceful is erroneous and untrue.
 
A marginal majority of muslims prefer violence unto the pagan, the non-trinitarian Christian and the Jew. While they wish to live harmonious lives they will be good citizens supporting the overall cultural and religious goal of world domination and genocide.
 
The central tenets of Islam, unlike Christianity, do in fact support Holy War.
 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       9/21/2009 3:55:04 PM
One must after all remember that in the peaceful day of Mohammed, he rose up as a scourge upon those who had settled in fat prosperity.
The new warriors of Islam could be likened to the original and second rising of Islam (after the counteroffensive of the first Crusade). They are true standard bearers of Islam and while the West seeks to deceive Muslims around the world to be peaceful many muslims are leaving their religion, disgusted by what it is. 
The reason right-wing Islam has survived for so long against this opposition is because it is recognized by any well-read and objective Muslim to be the true article.
 
Quote    Reply

jastayme3       9/26/2009 1:29:27 PM

One must after all remember that in the peaceful day of Mohammed, he rose up as a scourge upon those who had settled in fat prosperity.

The new warriors of Islam could be likened to the original and second rising of Islam (after the counteroffensive of the first Crusade). They are true standard bearers of Islam and while the West seeks to deceive Muslims around the world to be peaceful many muslims are leaving their religion, disgusted by what it is. 

The reason right-wing Islam has survived for so long against this opposition is because it is recognized by any well-read and objective Muslim to be the true article.


Not really. Those were warriors and no worse then the standards of the day. Many of these are more like Hasheshim. But more bloodthirsty.
 
Quote    Reply





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