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Holy War Against Hamas

March 27, 2009: The recent 22 day war against Hamas touched a nerve with many Israelis, who are not happy with the constant rocket and mortar attacks coming out Gaza, and Hamas insisting that Israel must be destroyed and all Jews killed. So many of the Israeli troops going into Gaza were eager for a little payback. The Israeli army chaplains are a conservative bunch, and told the troops that the battle against Hamas was something of a holy war (because of the virulent anti-Semitic  attitudes of Hamas) against a force that was dedicated to destroying Israel. Now the mainstream media has picked up on this and run with the "Israeli soldiers ordered to commit atrocities in Gaza" angle. All this is long on speculation and short on facts, but it sells newspapers, and that's what it's for.

Israel revealed that it has sent warplanes down the Red Sea to attack a convoy of trucks, near the Egyptian border in Sudan, carrying Iranian long range rockets destined for Gaza. Iran brings the rockets (and other weapons) in through Port Sudan, and then trucks them to Egypt. Sudan is an ally of Iran, and thus does not interfere. Egypt is not a friend of Iran, but the border police can be bribed. The January attack destroyed 17 truckloads of weapons, and killed the 39 men operating the vehicles. Since then, the smugglers have resorted to individual trucks, and the use of small boats moving up the Red Sea coast.

Negotiations between Hamas and Israel are stalemated over the release of about a hundred experienced and dedicated terrorists. Israel does not want to let these guys go, because that will result in dead Israelis. A major reason for the terrorist lack of success over the last few years, is the Israeli campaign against the terrorist leaders and technical experts. Hundreds have been killed or captured, and this has crippled the Palestinians terrorism capabilities. Hamas wants to get their terror mojo back by getting a hundred of their major players out of jail.

Meanwhile, the Israeli army is preparing for a second round of fighting in Gaza. With a new Israeli government formed (after the recent elections), decisions on military operations in Gaza can be made. Most Israelis believe that Hamas is beyond redemption, and that the only solution is to go in and do major damage to Hamas in Gaza. The Israelis feel that you can't really negotiate with a group who keeps insisting that the only end game here is the destruction of Israel and the death to all Jews.

March 25, 2009: The Iron Dome anti-rocket system successfully passed a crucial test, and is expected to be in service within the year. Iron Dome can knock down rockets with a range of up to 70 kilometers.

March 22, 2009: Israel now has two NATO members (Canada and Netherlands) are renting Israeli UAVs for their troops in Afghanistan. The big loser here is France, whose Sperwer UAVs have proved disappointing when used in a combat zone.

March 21, 2009: Police found and defused a hundred pound car bomb in the parking lot of a shopping center. The bomb was poorly made, another result of the many years of going after the bomb makers themselves. Police fear that Israeli Arabs were involved in getting the bomb into the crowded parking lot.  

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jastayme3       3/27/2009 4:31:53 PM
Something amusing about the idea of Hamas having a holy war urged against it. Kind of like the biter, bit.
 
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battar    Holy war, holy cow   4/2/2009 2:57:09 PM
Jas
Or anyone else.
Can you supply me with an example of a war fought by, or against, Moslems, that they didn't call a "holy war"?
Moslems don't have unholy wars. If a Moslem blows a hole in you, that makes his mission holey.
 
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Ezekiel       4/2/2009 3:04:06 PM
a little corny...but it works.
Jas

Or anyone else.

Can you supply me with an example of a war fought by, or against, Moslems, that they didn't call a "holy war"?

Moslems don't have unholy wars. If a Moslem blows a hole in you, that makes his mission holey.


 
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jastayme3       4/3/2009 1:01:11 PM

Jas

Or anyone else.

Can you supply me with an example of a war fought by, or against, Moslems, that they didn't call a "holy war"?

Moslems don't have unholy wars. If a Moslem blows a hole in you, that makes his mission holey.

By Moslems: every bedouin raid. Glubb Pasha's Pacification of the desert.
 
Against Moslems: Barbary Coast Wars, Algierian Conquest, Great Mutiny, Northwest Frontier wars in India,
World War I, Arab-Israeli Wars, etc.
 
"Holy War" must be defined as a war that is specifically understood as a sacred duty and is considered the equivalent of a
religious ceremony. It cannot be, just a war in which religious people happened to think they were right. Or even prayed for victory. A war can be just without being a Holy War, everyone wants his side to win and praying for victory is the equivalent
of requesting indirect fire. A Holy War has to be specifically a religious act, not an act over which religion has a vague jurisdiction as a corralary to the mere fact of being theoretically absolute.
 
The first wars were fought by Moslems without being considered by them to be Holy Wars.
 
The later were fought against Moslems without being considered by the fighters to be Holy Wars-even though the Moslems may have considered them such from their own point of view. These campaigns were fought on behalf of a State for secular reasons, albeit often reasons considered urgent enough to be considered Just Wars. The Barbary Coast Wars were fought because America didn't want to take no guff from a lot of scurvey pirates. The Northwest Frontier wars were fought because no Empire has a right to call itself an Empire unless, at minimum, it was willing to protect peaceful people who are it's subjects from plunderers(a concept one should accept whether or not he accepts the legitimacy of Empires). These two wars are perfectly explicable with no reference to religion. And while a lot of the people who fought the Barbary coast wars enlisted specifically to fight the Barbary Pirates, the Northwest Frontier was mostly fought by professionals who fought because that's what soldiers do.
 
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battar    Holier than thou   4/3/2009 2:04:36 PM
Jas,
       I can figure out what is holy in warfare and what isn't for myself.  But whenever the shoooting - or bombing - starts, Moslem leadership immediately says it's all in god's name because that is the quickest and easiest way to get the uneducated masses on your side without having to actually explain anything.
As far as I can remember, Moslem leadership did call the Arab-Israeli wars "holy", but thats just a instinctive reaction on their part.
 
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Ezekiel       4/5/2009 2:04:57 PM
 You should not judge a religious response through the lense of the politicians response that invariably hijacks the theology for rhetorical sake inorder to gain political points. Look at the major religious figures in the community...the problem is that wahabism and ayatollism is clearly becoming the norms within the islamic community. SO the inditement stands but the evidence so far cited should be from  a different source.
Jas,

       I can figure out what is holy in warfare and what isn't for myself.  But whenever the shoooting - or bombing - starts, Moslem leadership immediately says it's all in god's name because that is the quickest and easiest way to get the uneducated masses on your side without having to actually explain anything.

As far as I can remember, Moslem leadership did call the Arab-Israeli wars "holy", but thats just a instinctive reaction on their part.


 
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battar    Political worship   4/6/2009 2:20:51 PM
It's tempting to think that politicians - from the Israelite kings of first temple period onward - actually invented religion as a tool to manipulate the lower classes - it's definitely the easiest way to get them bleating after the shepherd. Get people to believe that in war they are not dying for their ungrateful country, but giving their life for god in return for greater rewards, and they are less likely to question orders.  
 
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jastayme3       4/15/2009 3:06:14 PM

Jas,

       I can figure out what is holy in warfare and what isn't for myself.  But whenever the shoooting - or bombing - starts, Moslem leadership immediately says it's all in god's name because that is the quickest and easiest way to get the uneducated masses on your side without having to actually explain anything.

As far as I can remember, Moslem leadership did call the Arab-Israeli wars "holy", but thats just a instinctive reaction on their part.

But the Israelis did not in fact call it holy. They did call it ideologically important which in practice comes to the same thing. But it wasn't fought on behalf of Judaism, so much as Jewish nationalism.
 
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jastayme3       4/15/2009 3:12:32 PM




Jas,



       I can figure out what is holy in warfare and what isn't for myself.  But whenever the shoooting - or bombing - starts, Moslem leadership immediately says it's all in god's name because that is the quickest and easiest way to get the uneducated masses on your side without having to actually explain anything.



As far as I can remember, Moslem leadership did call the Arab-Israeli wars "holy", but thats just a instinctive reaction on their part.




But the Israelis did not in fact call it holy. They did call it ideologically important which in practice comes to the same thing. But it wasn't fought on behalf of Judaism, so much as Jewish nationalism.


But yes some of my examples are a bit off. None the less it is true that there were wars fought by Moslems that were
not called Holy Wars.
And you distinctly said "against". I interpreted that to mean the reaction of those who were in fact fighting against Moslems. There were several wars which were only called Holy Wars by one side.
 And no you certainly cannot "figure out what is holy in warfare for yourself". You do not have an absolute dictatorship over historical analysis.
 
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jastayme3       4/15/2009 3:14:30 PM

It's tempting to think that politicians - from the Israelite kings of first temple period onward - actually invented religion as a tool to manipulate the lower classes - it's definitely the easiest way to get them bleating after the shepherd. Get people to believe that in war they are not dying for their ungrateful country, but giving their life for god in return for greater rewards, and they are less likely to question orders.  

It is equally tempting to believe that secularists have a strange propensity for conspiracy theories for supposedly rational people.
 
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