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Mirror, Mirror On The Wall, Who's Got The Fairest Ships Of All

August 7, 2009: Nearly a hundred warships, from over two dozen countries, have served on the Somali anti-piracy patrol so far, and, although the sailors rarely get to meet, they do have a chance to communicate with each other as they patrol, or chase off pirates. Sailors compare notes, and some are shocked at some of the differences between navies. And there are some big differences.

Not all navies have women on warship crews, but the U.S., Britain and many other Western nations do. Ships from temperate zone nations find that their ships are not as well prepared for the tropics (even if equipped with air conditioning). It gets very, very hot off the coast of Somalia.

American sailors are once again reminded that most other navies carry beer, wine and harder stuff for the crew. U.S. ships are "dry" in that respect. Then again, American ships are noted for good food and comfortable (compared to most other navies) living quarters. This is because, the U.S. Navy keeps its ships at sea more than anyone else. Since all American sailors are volunteers (who will not stay in unless there is a certain degree of comfort on board), U.S. ships are built for this. Most other navies save money by building warships that will not spend a lot of time at sea, meaning crew quarters, and amenities, can be more modest. This backfires when you do send your ships off on an "American style" mission.

One American amenity most sailors are very envious of is the Internet access on U.S. warships. The U.S. took the lead in this department, and it's been a big morale boost. Another American fringe benefit is that U.S. sailors can shoot to kill when confronting pirates. Most warships off the Somali coast are under orders to not fire unless fired on, and to practice catch (pirates in the act) and release (after disarming them.)

British ships are similar to the American ones, with the addition of booze. The U.S. modeled many of its ship design policies after those pioneered by the British. While Britain has a much smaller navy these days, the ships are still built for long voyages.

 

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trenchsol       8/7/2009 1:48:48 PM
This is a bit off topic, but I've read some articles about  Royal Navy operations during both world wars. It seems that British seamen never hesitate to take on clearly stronger  enemy force. Is it just courage, or they are so confident of their skills ?
 
DG

 
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LB    RN   8/7/2009 5:31:06 PM
There are many factors but simply put the RN has hundreds of years of a winning naval tradition and simply expects to win.  They are very professional which combined with an ingrained institutional confidence lends itself to winning.  The flip side is that potential enemies also expect the RN to prevail.  OTH, over confidence can defeat you as well which has happened to the RN many times just not nearly enough to change anyone's perception about whom to bet on.
 
 
This is a bit off topic, but I've read some articles about  Royal Navy operations during both world wars. It seems that British seamen never hesitate to take on clearly stronger  enemy force. Is it just courage, or they are so confident of their skills ?

 

DG





 
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Don Vandervelde    Saving civilization   8/7/2009 6:38:11 PM
   Trenchsol, good comment.  The Brits and the Royal Navy controlled a good fraction of the globe for a couple of centuries from a smallish island in the North Sea.  Their military traditions and empire required steadfastness in the face of numerical odds.
 
  The U.S Navy is heir to this fighting tradition.  For example, a puny band of American destroyers and jeep carriers attacked and repulsed a huge fleet of Jap Battleships and Cruisers sent to stop MacArthurs' landing, at the battle of Leyte in the Philipines.  The outgunned Americans expended all their ammo, took devastating casualties, losing most of their ships in the attack, but saved the Leyte landings.  The excellent account in the book "The last stand of the tin can sailors" tells this story in fascinating detail.
 
 
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Herald12345    Its the American way.   8/8/2009 6:44:53 AM

   Trenchsol, good comment.  The Brits and the Royal Navy controlled a good fraction of the globe for a couple of centuries from a smallish island in the North Sea.  Their military traditions and empire required steadfastness in the face of numerical odds.

 

  The U.S Navy is heir to this fighting tradition.  For example, a puny band of American destroyers and jeep carriers attacked and repulsed a huge fleet of Jap Battleships and Cruisers sent to stop MacArthurs' landing, at the battle of Leyte in the Philipines.  The outgunned Americans expended all their ammo, took devastating casualties, losing most of their ships in the attack, but saved the Leyte landings.  The excellent account in the book "The last stand of the tin can sailors" tells this story in fascinating detail.

 


 
 
 
 
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Spiky    Wrong Combo   8/8/2009 2:09:09 PM
Believe me, you do not, do not want men, women, and booze on the same ship. I KNOW. In general, this combo would not help the readiness of the U.S. Navy and is only a recipe for mischief.
 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       8/8/2009 9:03:38 PM
For a moment I thought that it is, a kind of, doctrine in RN......
 
LB, it's a good comment. Their daringness payed off many times, but many times the got overwhelmed, too.
 
As, far as I remember, majority of analysts predicted defeat in Falkland war, yet RN won. Perhaps, it was the most daring thing they ever did. The whole fleet was built for Atlantic convoy escort, as a part of possible NATO engagement against USSR. Those ships were not meant for power projection on the other side of the globe....
 
DG

 
Quote    Reply

trenchsol       8/8/2009 9:17:45 PM

  The U.S Navy is heir to this fighting tradition.  For example, a puny band of American destroyers and jeep carriers attacked and repulsed a huge fleet of Jap Battleships and Cruisers sent to stop MacArthurs' landing, at the battle of Leyte in the Philipines.  The outgunned Americans expended all their ammo, took devastating casualties, losing most of their ships in the attack, but saved the Leyte landings.  The excellent account in the book "The last stand of the tin can sailors" tells this story in fascinating detail.
 

Leyte is not, exactly, a good example for what I am trying to say.  US Navy  did that out of desperation,  to save Army troops. I don't remember if troops were still aboard the ships or on the beaches already, but they were vulnerable in any case. If they were lost, it would have significantly  prolonged the war. It was the last stand, as title says.
 
Brits don't do that out of desperation. They do that, even when they could retreat without consequences. Almost as if  it was some kind of sport match, it could even look irresponsible...
 
DG 
 
Quote    Reply

BasinBictory       8/21/2009 5:27:38 AM




  The U.S Navy is heir to this fighting tradition.  For example, a puny band of American destroyers and jeep carriers attacked and repulsed a huge fleet of Jap Battleships and Cruisers sent to stop MacArthurs' landing, at the battle of Leyte in the Philipines.  The outgunned Americans expended all their ammo, took devastating casualties, losing most of their ships in the attack, but saved the Leyte landings.  The excellent account in the book "The last stand of the tin can sailors" tells this story in fascinating detail.

 





Leyte is not, exactly, a good example for what I am trying to say.  US Navy  did that out of desperation,  to save Army troops. I don't remember if troops were still aboard the ships or on the beaches already, but they were vulnerable in any case. If they were lost, it would have significantly  prolonged the war. It was the last stand, as title says.


 

Brits don't do that out of desperation. They do that, even when they could retreat without consequences. Almost as if  it was some kind of sport match, it could even look irresponsible...


 

DG 
trenchsol,
Please provide examples of battles in which the RN could have "retreated without consequence" and yet pursued combat with superior forces. You could say that the hunting down of the Bismarck in some respects was somewhat analogous to British big game hunters in Africa going after that trophy lion, albeit a lion that had mauled and killed one of their hunting companions (HMS Hood).
 
The two battles for which the Royal Navy is most famous for, Gravelines and Trafalgar, were both fought "in desperation" because losing would have had grave consequences for the English. So I don't know exactly which actions you'e referring to.
 
As far as the Charge of Taffy 3 at the Battle of Leyte Gulf - the smaller American contingent of destroyers and escort carriers could theoretically have screened the Japanese force from a distance, harrassing them with long-range torpedo attacks and aerial assault, and waited for Halsey's massive strike force to return, but instead they charged headlong into the teeth of the Japanese fleet, causing enough confusion and chaos to the Japanese that they convinced the Japanese Admiral Kurita that this was the main American force, rather than a small screening force. He concluded that the ferocity of the attack meant either that this was the American "varsity" - their first line carrier strike force, or that larger, heavier units were nearby. He couldn't conceive that any commander in charge of a group of fragile and light destroyers and escort carriers would be foolhardy enough to take on battleships and heavy cruisers head on.

 
Quote    Reply

LB    RN   8/22/2009 6:15:34 AM
If you'd care to read a very good account of the naval war as seen by the RN naval commander then you might enjoy "One Hundred Days" by Adm Sandy Woodward.  I've reread it many times.  Your comments bring to mind that throughout the text one gets a feeling of quiet confidence born of professionalism and tradition.  

I do recall that many thought the RN couldn't pull it off.  The impression one gets from Adm Woodward is that while there were serious challenges and constraints and it was going to be no sure thing the RN as an institution had no doubts they could succeed.  The RN did make serious mistakes, especially in terms of command and control of the SSN's, and if Argentina had made less they might have put one of the two carriers out of action and according to Adm Woodward won the campaign.  

Daring is often rewarded, especially when it doesn't kill you.  My second favorite motto has always been "Who Dares Wins".  Daring is just in the DNA of the British military and has been for centuries.  It served them well in the Falklands and less well at places like Isandlwana.  That said even tragic failures of daring, like Balaclava, can get added to the tradition to highlight courage.
 
For a moment I thought that it is, a kind of, doctrine in RN......

 

LB, it's a good comment. Their daringness payed off many times, but many times the got overwhelmed, too.

 

As, far as I remember, majority of analysts predicted defeat in Falkland war, yet RN won. Perhaps, it was the most daring thing they ever did. The whole fleet was built for Atlantic convoy escort, as a part of possible NATO engagement against USSR. Those ships were not meant for power projection on the other side of the globe....

 

DG





 
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