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South Korea Is The New Germany

April 11, 2009: Construction is under way in South Korea, to build family housing at major bases. To come over with your family, troops have to agree to a two or three year tour in South Korea. They will also get an additional $300 a month, because some of the U.S. bases are still out in the boondocks, and families will not always be living at the same base as their soldier. There are still five bases that, for a while yet, will still be only for troops on hardship tours.

For as long as U.S. troops have been there, they served one year tours in South Korea, and could not bring their families with them. Going to South Korea was known as an "unaccompanied" (by family) tour. More colloquially, it was called a "hardship tour," but it was only rough on the married troops. The single guys, and many of the married ones, took advantage of the cheap booze and inexpensive prostitutes to take the edge off the "hardship." But in the last three decades, South Korea has turned into a first world economy, with all the amenities that Americans take for granted. The hookers are not only more expensive, but increasingly illegal. South Korea is now more like Japan and Germany, which have been off the "hardship tour" list since the 1960s.

At the same time, the U.S. forces in South Korea have shrunk from over 100,000 troops in the early 50s (after the war ended), to under 30,000. These days, the well equipped South Korea forces are believed capable of handling any invasion from the north. At the same time, communist North Korea has suffered famine and economic collapse since the end of the Cold War in 1991, and the end of Russian and Chinese subsidies that propped up the mismanaged economy. The North Korean military has, especially in the last decade, declined because of lack fuel shortages, which limited training. There hasn't been much money for new equipment, either, and the current stuff is falling apart. The North Koreans are still a threat, but South Korea is more worried about the human and fiscal fallout from a collapse of the North Korean government, and a reunification of Korea. That chaos will be paid for by the newly affluent taxpayers of South Korea, and the policed initially by South Korean troops. The small American force will, as always, be there mainly to guarantee U.S. reinforcements if the Chinese march into South Korea via North Korea, or the North Korea come across the border and get lucky.

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Gerry       4/12/2009 11:01:33 PM
I seriously doubt "South Korea " will become the modern Germany. The South Korean people are still very prejudice and not a very friendly society to live in. The laws and its inforcement are very one sided, while slicky boys and dishonest landlords abound. It is not a pleasant country for outsiders to live in.
 
It would be much less expensive to just pull out in our entirety and leave South Korea to the South Koreans. The 7th fleet as well as Japan and Guam make for a nice rim around the pacific.
 
The political ramifications would be South Koreas and not those of the US, as well as for their own protection. South Korea no longer needs US support militarily or otherwise.
 
Quote    Reply

Grok       4/13/2009 4:00:57 AM
@Gerry:

It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:

1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?

2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.

While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.
 
Quote    Reply

dba       4/13/2009 1:32:52 PM

I seriously doubt "South Korea " will become the modern Germany. The South Korean people are still very prejudice and not a very friendly society to live in. The laws and its inforcement are very one sided, while slicky boys and dishonest landlords abound. It is not a pleasant country for outsiders to live in.

 

It would be much less expensive to just pull out in our entirety and leave South Korea to the South Koreans. The 7th fleet as well as Japan and Guam make for a nice rim around the pacific.

 

The political ramifications would be South Koreas and not those of the US, as well as for their own protection. South Korea no longer needs US support militarily or otherwise.

Gerry,
South Korea may not be the modern Germany but they offer universal healthcare for all it citizens AND descendants of Koreans that are citizens of other countries.  I read of a couple from Hawaii (Korean ancestry) going to S. Korea to get surgery when they couldn't afford it in US for lack of health insurance.  They just had to pay very low monthly fee for a few months and than they were covered for the surgery and the hospital stay.  

In that sense S. Korea is MORE modern than US.

And your statement about political ramifications of whatever happens on the Korean peninsula is for Koreans to deal with only is so wrong.  Look at the map.  Before China/Russia can have free access to the Pacific Ocean they have to pass through South Korea and Japan.  You could say Japan will be the line of defense against China/Russia but why give up a line of defense what's held up well for 60+ years.  

"The 7th fleet as well as Japan and Guam make for a nice rim around the pacific."  This kind of thinking and public statement as such by than Secretary of Defense in 1949 was one of the factors that started the Korean War.  Kim of North Korea thought US wouldn't intervene on behalf of S. Korea.   

S. Korea has 650,000+ active Army and small but effective airforce/navy.   Can you image Japan building up its Army to number that much?  And as effective?  I didn't think so.
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       4/13/2009 11:29:31 PM

@Gerry:




It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:




1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?




2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.




While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.

"Unless you're just adament in having this blatently prejudiced opinion, etc,etc". Yes, I am adament, and perhaps even prejudiced, ( my wife is korean, and I have and am close to many of my korean reletives as well. Being both very nice up to obnoctious as hell). Pejudice is difficult to get away from when you are very close to it.  Academically its a "no brainer". It also works two ways.
However my comments address my overall opinion of the Korean society as compared to the society I witnessed while in Germany. In my opinion, (and it is my opinion as much as your academic opinion is your opinion).  South korea is a land in flux, they are part of the mainland of asia and thier ties are with China, Japan, North Korea. Not the US.
 
The Korean people have never been noted as welcoming the americans and have always seen them as another invader to be used until independence.
 
 The customs and "traditional " values of the Korean people are very different than those one would encounter in Germany.  (one must understand that Korea was known as the "hermit kingdom" until the Japanese took over in 1905.)  Petty crime and larceny are rampant around US bases. However, as foreigners in Korea are "traditionally" looked at as "non persons", it isn't prosecuted as it would be toward a Korean. Hence much more injustice prevails. (one can alway close ones eyes to such misadministration of justice, and just push it away as irrelevent. I don't, nor do most others who have been there.) Much more so than ever in Germany and continuing through the years, up to today.
 
However as one who has followed the political situation in South Korea as well. I have seen politiucians making their reputation on how evil the US is vs the North Koreans. The history of South Korea has been completely rewritten in the last 20 years to often portray the americans and the UN as small players who comitted atrocities, while the South Koreans won the day. (MacArthurs statue was almost torn down a few years ago by anti american protesters) (although I would never have put it up 'in retrospect'.) The north is no longer seen as the enemy, the US is.
 
The 'small' US force is there for political reasons only. They no longer need to be there and should be withdrawn. South Korea will have to make a choice which way they want to go. I suspect it will be to allie itself with  China and eventually North Korea. (destroying itself in the process.)
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       4/13/2009 11:57:07 PM




I seriously doubt "South Korea " will become the modern Germany. The South Korean people are still very prejudice and not a very friendly society to live in. The laws and its inforcement are very one sided, while slicky boys and dishonest landlords abound. It is not a pleasant country for outsiders to live in.



 



It would be much less expensive to just pull out in our entirety and leave South Korea to the South Koreans. The 7th fleet as well as Japan and Guam make for a nice rim around the pacific.



 



The political ramifications would be South Koreas and not those of the US, as well as for their own protection. South Korea no longer needs US support militarily or otherwise.




Gerry,

South Korea may not be the modern Germany but they offer universal healthcare for all it citizens AND descendants of Koreans that are citizens of other countries.  I read of a couple from Hawaii (Korean ancestry) going to S. Korea to get surgery when they couldn't afford it in US for lack of health insurance.  They just had to pay very low monthly fee for a few months and than they were covered for the surgery and the hospital stay.  




In that sense S. Korea is MORE modern than US.




And your statement about political ramifications of whatever happens on the Korean peninsula is for Koreans to deal with only is so wrong.  Look at the map.  Before China/Russia can have free access to the Pacific Ocean they have to pass through South Korea and Japan.  You could say Japan will be the line of defense against China/Russia but why give up a line of defense what's held up well for 60+ years.  




"The 7th fleet as well as Japan and Guam make for a nice rim around the pacific."  This kind of thinking and public statement as such by than Secretary of Defense in 1949 was one of the factors that started the Korean War.  Kim of North Korea thought US wouldn't intervene on behalf of S. Korea.   




S. Korea has 650,000+ active Army and small but effective airforce/navy.   Can you image Japan building up its Army to number that much?  And as effective?  I didn't think so.
"This kind of thinking and public statements as such by the 'Sec Def" in 1949 was one of the factors that started the war. I could be wrong, but I thought it was the 'Sec State", who during his policy speech on the pacific, left out Korea. I'd have to go back and look it up and its too late at night and I wanted to answer your comment. (feel free to do so on my behalf).
I think the other half of the equation is that most people in government (at the time) didn't want to respond other than withdrawal of troops and civilians. It was 'Truman' who made the decision to stay and fight. (against advice to the contrary.)
 
So if my opinion of leaving equates to the same advice Truman received then it probobly was not all that bad as we lost 40,000? 50,000 in Korea? Where would Korea be today? Same place as the North is today?
 
As far as having 650,000 blocking troops keeping Japan safe, I would ask for what? Let Japan worry about it. (And yes they would. And they would have a much bigger 'self defense force')
 
Not to worry about Japan, Korea, and China becoming buddies to comfront the US as the history of the area is too long and deep for that to happen. The US could always be there to 'help' when it is in our interests.

 
Quote    Reply

cwDeici       4/14/2009 4:57:11 AM

@Gerry:




It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:




1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?




2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.




While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.


Actually they are pretty racist and prejudiced. Try reading up on some domestic judicial history and go there.
 
Quote    Reply

dba       4/14/2009 12:50:22 PM




@Gerry:










It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:










1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?










2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.










While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.




"Unless you're just adament in having this blatently prejudiced opinion, etc,etc". Yes, I am adament, and perhaps even prejudiced, ( my wife is korean, and I have and am close to many of my korean reletives as well. Being both very nice up to obnoctious as hell). Pejudice is difficult to get away from when you are very close to it.  Academically its a "no brainer". It also works two ways.


However my comments address my overall opinion of the Korean society as compared to the society I witnessed while in Germany. In my opinion, (and it is my opinion as much as your academic opinion is your opinion).  South korea is a land in flux, they are part of the mainland of asia and thier ties are with China, Japan, North Korea. Not the US.

 

The Korean people have never been noted as welcoming the americans and have always seen them as another invader to be used until independence.

 

 The customs and "traditional " values of the Korean people are very different than those one would encounter in Germany.  (one must understand that Korea was known as the "hermit kingdom" until the Japanese took over in 1905.)  Petty crime and larceny are rampant around US bases. However, as foreigners in Korea are "traditionally" looked at as "non persons", it isn't prosecuted as it would be toward a Korean. Hence much more injustice prevails. (one can alway close ones eyes to such misadministration of justice, and just push it away as irrelevent. I don't, nor do most others who have been there.) Much more so than ever in Germany and continuing through the years, up to today.

 

However as one who has followed the political situation in South Korea as well. I have seen politiucians making their reputation on how evil the US is vs the North Koreans. The history of South Korea has been completely rewritten in the last 20 years to often portray the americans and the UN as small players who comitted atrocities, while the South Koreans won the day. (MacArthurs statue was almost torn down a few years ago by anti american protesters) (although I would never have put it up 'in retrospect'.) The north is no longer seen as the enemy, the US is.

 

The 'small' US force is there for political reasons only. They no longer need to be there and should be withdrawn. South Korea will have to make a choice which way they want to go. I suspect it will be to allie itself with  China and eventually North Korea. (destroying itself in the process.)


Gerry,
Your observation is correct, but problem is it's 1 year too old.  The past 2 presidents DJ Kim and Noh were practically communists/North Korean agent in the closet.  No doubt about that.  But S. Koreans saw the lie and picked the current president who's definitely pro-US/capitalism.  
 
Quote    Reply

dba       4/14/2009 12:51:12 PM




@Gerry:










It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:










1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?










2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.










While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.






Actually they are pretty racist and prejudiced. Try reading up on some domestic judicial history and go there.

Maybe true.  But which country had slavery system and even fought civil war over it.  Or denied the rights to vote just because of skin color?
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       4/14/2009 9:44:39 PM


LOL, perhaps you are right and my synopsis is " One year too old". However that is after 12-16 years of left wing politics? I still think most Koreans in the end will go continental  and join China as the way of the future. That may be a matter of opinion as well, however I will stand by my opinion.







@Gerry:






















It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:






















1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?






















2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.






















While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.










"Unless you're just adament in having this blatently prejudiced opinion, etc,etc". Yes, I am adament, and perhaps even prejudiced, ( my wife is korean, and I have and am close to many of my korean reletives as well. Being both very nice up to obnoctious as hell). Pejudice is difficult to get away from when you are very close to it.  Academically its a "no brainer". It also works two ways.






However my comments address my overall opinion of the Korean society as compared to the society I witnessed while in Germany. In my opinion, (and it is my opinion as much as your academic opinion is your opinion).  South korea is a land in flux, they are part of the mainland of asia and thier ties are with China, Japan, North Korea. Not the US.



 



The Korean people have never been noted as welcoming the americans and have always seen them as another invader to be used until independence.



 



 The customs and "traditional " values of the Korean people are very different than those one would encounter in Germany.  (one must understand that Korea was known as the "hermit kingdom" until the Japanese took over in 1905.)  Petty crime and larceny are rampant around US bases. However, as foreigners in Korea are "traditionally" looked at as "non persons", it isn't prosecuted as it would be toward a Korean. Hence much more injustice prevails. (one can alway close ones eyes to such misadministration of justice, and just push it away as irrelevent. I don't, nor do most others who have been there.) Much more so than ever in Germany and continuing through the years, up to today.



 



However as one who has followed the political situation in South Korea as well. I have seen politiucians making their reputation on how evil the US is vs the North Koreans. The history of South Korea has been completely rewritten in the last 20 years to often portray the americans and the UN as small players who comitted atrocities, while the South Koreans won the day. (MacArthurs statue was almost torn down a few years ago by anti american protesters) (although I would never have put it up 'in retrospect'.) The north is no longer seen as the enemy, the US is.



 



The 'small' US force is there for political reasons only. They no longer need to be there and should be withdrawn. South Korea will have to make a choice which way they want to go. I suspect it will be to allie itself with  China and eventually North Korea. (destroying itself in the process.)







Gerry,

Your observation is correct, but problem is it's 1 year too old.  The past 2 presidents DJ Kim and Noh were practically communists/North Korean agent in the closet.  No doubt about that.  But S. Koreans saw the lie and picked the current president who's definitely pro-US/capitalism.  



 
Quote    Reply

Gerry       4/14/2009 10:02:37 PM




@Gerry:










It seems you've had a pretty jaded experience with South Korea, but to use your personal experience to say that South Korea will never become a modern Germany is extremely narrow thinking, to put it mildly.  There are thousands, if not more, service members, foreign workers (both skilled and unskilled), students and visitors who would vehemently disagree.  Unless you're just trying to be inflammatory, you've got little to stand on.  A couple counterpoints:










1. Your statement of how the ROK's domestic laws and enforcement thereof may be your opinion, but I ask what your specific justification is.  The US and ROK's adherence to the SOFA may not be perfect, but there's never been reason that there's something broken with the system.  If you're implying there's a perceived bias within the judicial and law enforcement systems against service members or foreigners, you may have a point; however, it's not more than what I've witnessed within the German Polizei or even local law enforcement around many military bases in the states.  Bottom line is that those with bias in those agencies are basing their judgement on historical experiences with said service members and perhaps with some influence of culture.  Using only the bad examples of a certain group to judge the whole seems pretty unfair, doesn't it?










2. Your use of "slicky boys" as a reason why the country is prohibitive and xenophobic seems unrealistic and unfair.  And dishonest landlords?  We have our fair share in Heidelberg, Ft. Benning, and countless other places around the world.  If someone was to cherry pick and use the thugs that operate both within and around military communities as an the face of the military culture would be an outrage, don't you think?  Unless you're just adamant in having this blatantly prejudiced opinion (in the dictionary sense that it's based on hearsay or personal experience rather than fact), then you'll have to admit that you're just dismissing the society, not to mention the economic strides it's made, as a whole for no reason.










While this article brings up a couple good points - although I have to say its use of prostitutes as an indicator of economic progress kind of detracted from the whole thing - I was actually hoping it would also talk about the industrial and economic progress that the country's made in the last 53 years, which followed similar lines to post-war Germany (in a nutshell: strategic/military security thanks to the US + foreign investment + development of domestic education and infrastructure).  However, I will add that General Bell made this as an initiative because he felt that the security and economic environment in the ROK was conducive to allowing families to be with their sponsor, which also tacitly implies the US has, and will have, a strategic investment in the peninsula for the forseeable future.  It's not just defense against NK, but projection of power, regional security partnership, and all other kinds of poly-sci buzzwords that explain why our continued presence is in support of US national security interests.  The fact that the ROK has become a key economic partner, and global industrial player in its production capability and global sales in computer chips and other technological fields is something to consider as well, I think.






Actually they are pretty racist and prejudiced. Try reading up on some domestic judicial history and go there.

I understand what you are trying to say, however I would still disagree. And yes, I understand the history of the US as well. If your point is to paint me as a racist feel free if it makes you feel good. I would paint you as a race baiter. Touche'.
 
If you've done any traveling at all, you would understand most countries do not subscibe to the "Barney" philosophy. (I love you, you love me", we are all the same and just need a group hug). Each country in its own right has a general opinion of where their future lies. I do not believe the Korean people feel their long term future lies with the US.
My only point is the Korean people would have liked history to have been on their side and the two Koreas one. That at some time in the future will probobly happen. When it does and the "protection" from the US is no longer needed the US will be tossed out in favor of reconciliation with the mainland. By that I mean idioligically as well as economically.
 
Consequently, to lesson future anguish, and get rid of a problem before it occurs, it would be in our own self interest to leave Korea.
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

Grok       4/15/2009 9:01:07 AM
Gerry said:

"Unless you're just adament in having this blatently prejudiced opinion, etc,etc". Yes, I am adament, and perhaps even prejudiced, ( my wife is korean, and I have and am close to many of my korean reletives as well. Being both very nice up to obnoctious as hell). Pejudice is difficult to get away from when you are very close to it. Academically its a "no brainer". It also works two ways.

However my comments address my overall opinion of the Korean society as compared to the society I witnessed while in Germany. In my opinion, (and it is my opinion as much as your academic opinion is your opinion). South korea is a land in flux, they are part of the mainland of asia and thier ties are with China, Japan, North Korea. Not the US.

I respect that your opinion is your own, and there may be little I can dissuade you from it, but I still think it's based on an incomplete picture of the country and culture. The prejudice I'm speaking of is that your opinion is based on your personal experiences from your time there, as well as your experiences with you wife and her family, as opposed to an objective evaluation of the role of the country in the region, its current and potential value for partnership in regional security and economic stability. Also, I'm not speaking from an "academic opinion." I have my own experiences, as I'm Korean, was born there, and came to the states when I was a young age. Eventually, I went to serve in the US military, which I still do, and was stationed there with 2ID years ago. I don't hold back in criticizing the shortcomings of Korean culture, but I do tend to put things in perspective when making observations and stating opinions. Likewise when I defend or make observations about American culture.

Yeah, Koreans can be hard-headed and racist. Like P.J. O'Rourke said, "They don't like anyone who isn't Korean, and they don't like each other all that much, either. They're hardheaded, hard-drinking, tough little bastards, 'the Irish of Asia'." I'm not making excuses for the less open-minded aspects of their behavior, but keep in mind that Korea is a homogenous culture - it's not like it's known as the melting pot of anything. Does that mean that the people aren't capable of moving beyond that? Using my own example, if I solely used my experiences growing up in the US when I didn't know English, I would have thought the US was full of racists myself. That would be extremely unfair, narrow-minded, and not indicative of the nation as a whole.

As for regional ties, Koreans have been historically skeptical and paranoid of everybody, so saying that they would enthusiastically ally themselves with China, Japan, or any other regional powers is unrealistic. The "hermit kingdom" mentality came about because of the numerous invasions and/or conflicts within the peninsula, from not just their Asian neighbors, but from western countries as well. That, along with the Japanese colonial occupation in the first half of the 20th century, and a post-war government with a history of corruption helped promote a xenophobic paranoia as well. That being said, there's a reason why the peninsula has been a place of contention - it's a key piece of terrain in the region. It's been the historical stepping point for invasions to and from the mainland and Japan, which results in the north being China's buffer zone between itself and western-friendly nations, the south as Japan's insurance policy against retribution by the north and/or China (you should know that Koreans don't let grudges die easy), and any upset in the balance of power in the region is detrimental to the US, both politically and economically. Basing everything from Japan doesn't work, because if things did heat up in Korea, we'd have a hard time in regaining any ground - MacArthur found that out the hard way. I do have to say that the generation of Koreans that truly do appreciate what the US did to liberate the south is unfortunately fading away. Exploiting resentment, washing over positive aspects of US-ROK relations, and twisting of people's fears is much easier to do with the younger generations, and is helped by a lot with the anti-American, and anti-military philosophies that are prevalent in the universities and propagated in some of the youth culture. Sound familiar? We've got that in our own universities.

All in all, I think the move to allow more families live with their sponsor in Korea is a positive one. I'm stationed in Germany now (although sitting in Iraq for the moment), and I have to say that Germans get a different impression of troops when they meet a service member AND they're family compared to their single, unaccompanied counterparts. This has been the case for Germany since the 60's, whereas USFK is just now starting to make changes to their policies and contradictory (in my opinion) delineations between accompanied and unaccompanied zones (i.e., Area I-IV). We can only hope that this works out for the best, but we should give it a chance.

cwDeici said:

Actually they are pretty racist and prejudiced. Try reading up on some domestic judicial history and go there.

I'm aware of the perception, but you need to list specific examples for me. I read other blogs such as ROK Drop and Marmot's Hole, which are pretty good at citing these incidents, but they're pretty extreme examples, and few and far between. I still believe the SOFA works for the most part, and while Korea doesn't have a perfect legal system (is there such a thing?), US personnel are protected from abuse.
 
Quote    Reply

Gerry    GROK   4/16/2009 12:53:03 AM
Thank you for your thoughtful response. And yes, while I understand where you are coming from, I would 'not' argue with you on the issues of the society. I understand the history of Korea, and have tried to understand what it means in todays world. It is unique in its own history of invasion, isolation, and the occupation by Japan, as well as its geographical location.
 
On the other hand, I believe the premise that the future of Korea lies with the mainland and not with the pacific rim countries still holds true. The people and natural borders with China and Russia are in opposition to the Japanese mainland. And that is where the most significant history lies. It would only be natural for Korea to cement economic and cultural ties to its mainland neighbors, than it would be to with Japan.
 
That process (I believe) will take a number of years, starting with the collapse of North Korea. Two problems arise with that senerio. 1. South Korea is still technicall at war with the North, so any crossing of the border would be an act of war. (so China could claim). 2. China already is NKs major trading partner and it would be more appropriate for Chinese administrators and security people to move in to establish control for a country in upheaval.
 
An agreement between China and South Korea to reunite under China's supervision would work for both countries, and be in both countries interest.
 
Hence, goodby US, UN.
 
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