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Cowards In Command

April 20, 2009: The U.S. Marine Corps now allows battalion commanders to decide if and when their riflemen can wear less armor, and in what circumstances. Before that, only regimental or brigade commanders had that authority, and the new rule takes the responsibility down to a more reasonable level. Even though the marines tend to be more innovative, and use more initiative, in matters like this, senior marine officers have been putting off making decisions on the matter of how much body armor is enough. This is all part of an ongoing debate in the infantry community over how much body armor provides the right combination of protection and mobility. There are times when the troops have to move fast (as when chasing down a sniper). But the senior commanders are under a lot of pressure to keep friendly casualties down, so they tend to insist that the troops wear all their armor all the time. Despite this, some subordinate commanders look the other way when troops shed some armor temporarily to get some needed speed.

Recent protective vest designs have a quick release feature, that makes it easier to get the vest off, and back on again. The most recent design is much lighter, but covers less area. Some 500 of these new vests were supposed to be over in Afghanistan by now, for troops to test in combat. But the army procurement bureaucrats got cold feet at the last minute, and decided to delay the tests so that the new armor could undergo more studies.

This infuriates soldiers and marines, who point out that the SOCOM operators (Special Forces and SEALs) will sometimes go into action without their protective vests, and get new equipment very quickly. Again, that is done because completion of the mission is more important than covering your ass when a reporter goes after you for "unnecessary casualties."

 Many of the troops are willing to take the risk, because they believe, for example, that taking down a sniper when you have the chance, is worth it. If you don't catch the guy, he will be back in action the next day, kill American troops. All this is another example of the fact that "victory" is defined differently, depending on what your rank is.

 

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verong       4/20/2009 9:00:07 PM
why are you affraid if you do not capture or kill the sniper he will get you when snipers have against body armor about zero casualty infliction????
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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TravisM    ...   4/20/2009 11:26:36 PM
Because of the fact that body armor doesn't protect from a round to the face, for example. All it takes is for the sniper to get lucky with a shot and that's another dead service member even if they are wearing body armor.
 
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jj mollo    Appearance Trumps Effectiveness   4/21/2009 12:47:50 AM
Troops have honest priorities.  Their officers are fighting a different war.  As you say, "victory" is defined differently.  It just seems a shame that it's just more information war all the way up.  Someday it will be a real citizen's army where America's interests come first and tactical decision can be made where they should be made.
 
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verong       4/21/2009 8:23:22 PM

Because of the fact that body armor doesn't protect from a round to the face, for example. All it takes is for the sniper to get lucky with a shot and that's another dead service member even if they are wearing body armor.


true!!!! but if he missies enough times he will get caught. remember "one shot one kill" motto when body armor is involved this is much hard to achieve which means he must fire more than once which means he might have to expose himself to detection more freqently than without body armor thus givening the troops more time to find and kill or capture him!!!
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       4/22/2009 2:40:47 AM

Because of the fact that body armor doesn't protect from a round to the face, for example. All it takes is for the sniper to get lucky with a shot and that's another dead service member even if they are wearing body armor.

Or the sniper can use a weapon with enough punch to penetrate the body armor. 
 
I have not kept track, can the current body armor set stop the 7.62mm x 54mm rounds from the standard issue Dragunov Sniper Rifle as well as the 7.62mm x 39mm round from the AK series assault rifles?
 
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verong       4/22/2009 11:22:24 AM



Because of the fact that body armor doesn't protect from a round to the face, for example. All it takes is for the sniper to get lucky with a shot and that's another dead service member even if they are wearing body armor.



Or the sniper can use a weapon with enough punch to penetrate the body armor. 

 

I have not kept track, can the current body armor set stop the 7.62mm x 54mm rounds from the standard issue Dragunov Sniper Rifle as well as the 7.62mm x 39mm round from the AK series assault rifles?



last I heard it could take hits from .3006 ap
 
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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TravisM       4/24/2009 7:31:59 PM
Thing is, that I as a Marine or soldier would not want to be the first person that sniper gets lucky and kills. All it takes is that one shot. So if he misses, nail the sucker so he won't have a chance to try again. It's also a morale booster if you get the fellow who's been shooting at you and your men.  It's all situational, of course, but it's surprising how many of our boys got hit by snipers over there. I'm very glad that many of them survive due to the body armor that you mention! But I'm afraid that the body armor won't protect against that one lucky shot.
 
On a side note- there's a fantastic book about snipers over in Iraq: called Trigger Men by Hans Halbertstadt. Just seeing the effect that our snipers have on the enemy makes for one interesting read. 
 
Quote    Reply

ArtyEngineer    WarNerd   4/24/2009 7:47:45 PM



Because of the fact that body armor doesn't protect from a round to the face, for example. All it takes is for the sniper to get lucky with a shot and that's another dead service member even if they are wearing body armor.



Or the sniper can use a weapon with enough punch to penetrate the body armor. 

 

I have not kept track, can the current body armor set stop the 7.62mm x 54mm rounds from the standard issue Dragunov Sniper Rifle as well as the 7.62mm x 39mm round from the AK series assault rifles?
Yes, the ESAPI (Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert ) in conjunction with the Level III IBA or IOTV flak jackets can stop multiple hits from the following:
Protection Level: (Multi Hits)
Weapon Type Ammunition Striking Velocity ft/s
Rifle M-1 7.62x63mm - APM2 2850
Rifle FN FAL 7.62x51mm - M80 Ball/AP 2750
Rifle SVD, Dragunov M.G. PKM 7.62x54R - LPS/B32 API 2870
Rifle M-16/M4 M855 / M193 3000/3250
Regards
 
Arty

 
Quote    Reply

verong       4/24/2009 11:17:04 PM







Because of the fact that body armor doesn't protect from a round to the face, for example. All it takes is for the sniper to get lucky with a shot and that's another dead service member even if they are wearing body armor.







Or the sniper can use a weapon with enough punch to penetrate the body armor. 



 



I have not kept track, can the current body armor set stop the 7.62mm x 54mm rounds from the standard issue Dragunov Sniper Rifle as well as the 7.62mm x 39mm round from the AK series assault rifles?



Yes, the ESAPI (Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert ) in conjunction with the Level III IBA or IOTV flak jackets can stop multiple hits from the following:


Protection Level: (Multi Hits)

Weapon Type Ammunition Striking Velocity ft/s

Rifle M-1 7.62x63mm - APM2 2850

Rifle FN FAL 7.62x51mm - M80 Ball/AP 2750

Rifle SVD, Dragunov M.G. PKM 7.62x54R - LPS/B32 API 2870

Rifle M-16/M4 M855 / M193 3000/3250


Regards

 

Arty





Why not add a face plate?
Sincerely,
 
Keith
 
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