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Death To Little Boats

May 14, 2009: The U.S. Navy is adapting a new U.S. Army missile system to be used from helicopters to destroy small boats. For the last five years, the navy has been planning to equip its new LCS (Littoral Combat Ships) with a U.S. Army artillery system to provide fire support to troops near the coast. The army system is NetFires (or NLOS-LS), which is nearing the end of its development. NLOS-LS is actually two different missiles, identical in weight and size, but different in how they operate. The main one is PAM (Precision Attack Missile). This is a 178mm diameter missile that weighs 120 pounds, and has a range of 40 kilometers. PAM attacks from above, with a 28 pound warhead. This enables it to kill any tank by hitting the thinner top armor. This warhead would also sink a small boat, especially one carrying a suicide bomber. PAM uses a GPS, imaging infrared (seeks a particular shape down there) or laser seeker.

PAMs are usually vertically-launched, from what looks like a 4x6x4 foot (wide x deep x high) 1.5 ton cargo container. Actually, it IS a cargo container. The missiles are shipped from the factory in this sealed container. Each container holds 15 missiles and can be carried on the back of a truck, or a ship. The current navy tests are to see if NLOS-LS will work if you sling the container underneath a MH-60 helicopter and fire the missiles at swarms of small boats seeking to attack navy ships.

Once you plug a PAM container into the wireless battlefield Internet, the missiles are ready to fire. the fire control officer on the LCS send one or more PAMs against any enemy target that shows up on their screen (usually a larger flat screen.) The battlefield Internet is using aircraft, UAVs, satellites and ground sensors to pick up targets for LCS. When the fire control officer sees a target he wants to kill, a point and click will send the coordinates of the target to a PAM container, launch a PAM to the approximate location, where the missiles own sensor will pick up the target and home in on it. The sensors will, most of the time, pick up the vehicle as destroyed and adjust the fire control officers screen accordingly. The navy helicopter version of NLOS-LS would allow someone on the helicopter (like the co-pilot) to also spot targets and fire PAM missiles at them.

 Recognizing that there will be situations, like where there are a lot of woods or jungles, that will prevent sensors from spotting a lot of targets, there's a second NetFires missile, the LAM (Loitering Attack Missile). Same weight and all of the PAM, except it is actually a mini-cruise missile and can fly as far as 70 kilometers to an assigned area, and then patrol the an area for 30 minutes looking for a target. If one is not found, it just crashes. If a target is detected with the built in radar (laser radar, or LADAR, actually) and the built in software recognizes the vehicle as an enemy one, the missile attacks from above. Alas, the LAM warhead isn't large enough to take out most tanks, but anything else would likely be toast.

The first LCS joined the fleet last year. The LCS features a number of major innovations. For one thing, it is highly automated, and has a crew of less than fifty. The LCS has a large cargo hold that can be quickly fitted with gear to turn it into a mine clearing ship, a fire support ship (with NetFires containers), a submarine hunter, or just about anything (anti-aircraft, commando support, or even command and control.) Each LCS also carries a Black Hawk size helicopter (MH-60), and has a hanger for it. There is also a water level dock for launching USV (Unmanned Surface Vehicles).

 

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Herald12345    ROTFLMAO   5/14/2009 5:42:20 PM
You folks know why.
 
Rockets don't work against pirates..........my LEFT foot! 

 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       5/14/2009 6:02:09 PM
at the risk of walking into a war zone, wasn't it always more of an issue of how what and where re weapons choice?.  although I must confess to being confused at the end of that prev thread. :)  i.e. response was always an issue of where the threat was within the layer.

but, I will reinforce the fact that I threw the issue of NLOS as a depth response to small fast boghammer type threats and similar piracy vessels a few months ago.  in a weapons free scenario, airburst NLOS was seen as attractive.

the persistent bugbear has been how what and when a threat is spotted and its intent determined if they have weapons like RPG's on board.

Wth robust rules and a declared zone, they could be pinged way outside of the range of small arms.  the problem has been the legitimacy of the declared zone.

change the rules of issues such as declaring zones etc and how small craft can cohabitate (legitimately) in common sea space - and we'll start to make progress.

and as much as I disagree with Adm Roughhead on his passive approach to China, he does have it right on piracy.  ie responding at sea is a reactive event.  starting to solve the problem is a land event - and not necessarily or exclusively a military one.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/15/2009 2:23:55 PM

at the risk of walking into a war zone, wasn't it always more of an issue of how what and where re weapons choice?.  although I must confess to being confused at the end of that prev thread. :)  i.e. response was always an issue of where the threat was within the layer.

The issue was the last 1000 meters. There is no reason for a foreign skiff to chase a freighter that close EVER.

but, I will reinforce the fact that I threw the issue of NLOS as a depth response to small fast boghammer type threats and similar piracy vessels a few months ago.  in a weapons free scenario, airburst NLOS was seen as attractive.

It makes sense for a Bogjammer swarm.

the persistent bugbear has been how what and when a threat is spotted and its intent determined if they have weapons like RPG's on board.

CREF above rough rule of thumb.

With robust rules and a declared zone, they could be pinged way outside of the range of small arms.  the problem has been the legitimacy of the declared zone.

CREF rough rule of thumb.

change the rules of issues such as declaring zones etc and how small craft can cohabitate (legitimately) in common sea space - and we'll start to make progress.

CREF rough rule of thumb.

and as much as I disagree with Adm Roughhead on his passive approach to China, he does have it right on piracy.  ie responding at sea is a reactive event.  starting to solve the problem is a land event - and not necessarily or exclusively a military one.

 I led off originally with noting that areas like Somalia are basket cases and that the reason nobody wanted to go in and clean up the mess (at least in America as far as Somalia ) was that we just don't care about them enough to spend the blood and treasure after Mogadishu.  Nation building doesn't work if the nation doesn't want to be built.  Maybe its not right, but we have NO INTEREST.

 

 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       5/16/2009 5:42:42 AM
The issue was the last 1000 meters. There is no reason for a foreign skiff to chase a freighter that close EVER.
 
I bet that a statement like that in court would seal your fate if the pirates families manage to get into US courts to sue. 
 
(Yes, their coming to the US to sue is ridiculous, but there have been a lot of worse cases accepted.)

 
Quote    Reply

doggtag    last I heard...   5/17/2009 3:08:49 PM
....was that LAM was out of the picture.
Budget reasons, IIRC, and that was at least early last year, if not two years ago, even.
 
PAM is still the preferred choice for the current so-damned-close-to-production NetFires 15-cell NLOS-LS CLU.
Maybe it was seen that LAM's comparably small warhead (less than 10pounds, a multiple-fragment EFP type) wasn't worth the extra loiter time and range abilities (or its time to target was deemed to take too long) ?
 
The potential is there that merit will still be found in LAM, but for now it's a production dead horse.
 
NetFires product data sheet .
Wiki entry here.
Designation-Systems.Net entry here 
US Army's XM501 NLOS-LS webpage here.
 
(apparently, PAM was staying close enough to its cost and technical expectations, but LAM was running into too many technical hurdles and cost issues.)
 
With LAM currently out of the picture, I am anticipating at some future point that LockheedMartin will propose a naval-friendly containerized variant of its P44, a 4-mode seeker tactical missile (seen up close at the bottom paragraph here ),
perhaps in triplet form into the ESSM's MK48 VLS cell (single ESSM per cell).
People have argued that in current form the LCS lacks a suitable AAW suite, and if the ship class does reach even 40 hulls in the water, we may certainly see some sort of even limited AAW armament either permanently or modularly made available.
Such a system would offer a fairly cheap (as compared to larger Harpoon-sized SSMs), long range (Over The Horizon)precision SSM capable of outranging any adversary ship- or shore-based tube artillery systems, and with 28 pound warheads (same class as PAM's)ceratinly more than a match for swarming Boghammers.
Theoretically, a so-modified 8-cell MK48 VLS comes packed with possibly 24 quite-capable SSMs (whose small size may prove difficult for some CIWS, and the multimode seekers could prove very tricky to decoy).
The P44 is being considered/marketed as a helicopter-launchable munition, and certainly possesses speed and range abilities over PAM.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/17/2009 4:45:43 PM

The issue was the last 1000 meters. There is no reason for a foreign skiff to chase a freighter that close EVER.


 

I bet that a statement like that in court would seal your fate if the pirates families manage to get into US courts to sue. 


 

(Yes, their coming to the US to sue is ridiculous, but there have been a lot of worse cases accepted.)





Agreed, but when has the law ever been about common sense? The key word is CHASE as indicating hostile intent.
 
Quote    Reply

RockyMTNClimber    Herald, you never responded to the points being made....   5/17/2009 6:01:12 PM
 
Herald, I am perfectly happy to continue this conversation here if that is what you wish. To start with, the discussion on the other thread dealt with civilian security contractors or ship's crews defending privately owned and operated vessels. At no point in our earlier conversation were we discussing weapons for warships. That is a nuance that invalidates your idea's connection with this article.
 
As always, you must bend reality and other's comments to keep your marginal concept afloat. Again, it was never an issue of whether a missile system can be used against small craft, it was always an issue of rules of engagement and the principals of elevation of force, and appropriate weapons for civilian use in response to pirates equipped with outboard motor boats. As was made clear to you on the earlier thread you will not legally engage a pirate at 1,000 meters since it is impossible to determine if the craft is hostile until they close with you (unless they were crazy enough to engage with machine guns and RPG's while in a bouncing skiff over 3,000 feet away from you, and that has never been their M.O.D.). This article does not support your goofy plan of arming civilian craft with Spike or Javelin missiles, it is about equipping the USN's new Littoral Combat ships. You know the differences in their requirements, don't you? Or, would you like an explanation of their dissimilar purposes?
 
You are a funny little guy Herald, so keep ROTFLMAO'ing. Be assured are laughing with you.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/17/2009 6:37:37 PM

 

Herald, I am perfectly happy to continue this conversation here if that is what you wish. To start with, the discussion on the other thread dealt with civilian security contractors or ship's crews defending privately owned and operated vessels. At no point in our earlier conversation were we discussing weapons for warships. That is a nuance that invalidates your idea's connection with this article.

NETFIRES is perfectly adaptable to a freighter as an armed merchant freighter weapon, but that is NOT the point. 

As always, you must bend reality and other's comments to keep your marginal concept afloat. Again, it was never an issue of whether a missile system can be used against small craft, it was always an issue of rules of engagement and the principals of elevation of force, and appropriate weapons for civilian use in response to pirates equipped with outboard motor boats. As was made clear to you on the earlier thread you will not legally engage a pirate at 1,000 meters since it is impossible to determine if the craft is hostile until they close with you (unless they were crazy enough to engage with machine guns and RPG's while in a bouncing skiff over 3,000 feet away from you, and that has never been their M.O.D.). This article does not support your goofy plan of arming civilian craft with Spike or Javelin missiles, it is about equipping the USN's new Littoral Combat ships. You know the differences in their requirements, don't you? Or, would you like an explanation of their dissimilar purposes?

???????????????????????????????????????????????
 
Small skiffs approach and lookout spots at 1000 meters. Put stern to them and open range. They now chase you. At that point it becomes OBVIOUS.  Start shooting as soon as you can with whatever you have.
 

You are a funny little guy Herald, so keep ROTFLMAO'ing. Be assured are laughing with you.

Laugh away. If you think a freighter captain is laughing then you are not reading WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.

Check Six

Best way to kill a pirateas a merchant-from your own stern as you run away.  

Rocky


Herald
 
Quote    Reply

warpig       5/17/2009 8:18:24 PM
Herald, your last response is absurd in light of reality.  Could freighters do that?  Of course it is physically possible.  Will any civilian ships ever do that?  NO.
Rocky, DA, and others completely own you in this argument.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/17/2009 8:59:58 PM

Herald, your last response is absurd in light of reality.  Could freighters do that?  Of course it is physically possible.  Will any civilian ships ever do that?  NO.


Rocky, DA, and others completely own you in this argument.

 

We shall see..............
 
The problem hasn't gone away.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

kirby1       5/18/2009 9:52:10 PM
Could a random freighter captain engage an enemy with NLOS? No. Could a navy commander on an LCS or DDG open fire with a  NLOS that just happened to be sitting in a strange place, like onboard a US flagged freighter that just happened to be transitting the gulf, YES. Especially if that freighter just happened to be DOD property, and the LCS captain just happened to have a UAV in the air feeding him some birdseye video of the boat.
 
The joy of wireless technology,
 
Stick that launcher on a Merchant marine ship, or a navy tender, or even a minesweeper, and see who's dumb enough to give chase. Stick some marines onboard just in case the launcher doesn't work.  Not all warships look like 'warships'.
 
Quote    Reply

benellim4       5/18/2009 9:56:15 PM
I'm trying to think of where you could put two of these containers on the main deck of a DDG-51...
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       5/19/2009 9:46:20 AM
This is no way validates the concept of arming merchant shipping with missiles. It's a completely different application and firearms far outclass this in the application as even the USN acknowledges. In fact the CNO doesn't even consider it a Naval issue but rather thinks PMC are the answer...

Rep. Gene Taylor, D-Miss., chairman of the Seapower subcommittee, asked the CNO about Somali pirates, wondering whether a military security team could be placed on all American-flag vessels. Taylor urged that if a ship ?has got an American cargo on it, it?s our stuff. We should put a team of trigger-pullers on there.?

Roughead noted that just hours before the hearing, a contractor security team aboard a ship in the Gulf of Aden had repulsed a pirate attack.

?I believe that that scheme is something that should be pursued as opposed to putting sailors and Marines aboard ships,? the CNO said. 

...Again to understand how force can best be applied to this situation you have to understand the dynamics of a MOOTW scenario to include the ROE and legal issues. Of course, if a soldier in Iraq can't just randomly shoot Iraqi's who might be a threat in a warzone, what makes one think a civilian at sea can do it to a bunch of "fisherman" in a small boat following a freighter. Any survivors could easily claim there was a medical emergency on board and that they were seeking to use the larger ships communications or any one of a dozen other lies I've seen people use in these situations and you would be dealing with a nightmare international incident potentially. Even more obvious should be that pirates when captured are often released because despite RPGs and AKs no one can prove they broke any laws!

There are distinct differences between a warship like an LCS using missiles and a civilian ship. The issue was NEVER about if a missile would be able to destroy a small boat. Thats a strawman. The issue was always about appropriateness and effectiveness in the given role which is not to make a merchant ship into a missile boat but to provide scalable and reasonable means of self defense that would prevent pirates from boarding a ship.

Hanging on to this missile idea suggest complete misunderstanding.
 
-DA 
 
 
Quote    Reply

RockyMTNClimber    Herald, sources please? Which merchies are begging for guided missiles? Quoted where?   5/19/2009 7:33:24 PM




 



Herald, I am perfectly happy to continue this conversation here if that is what you wish. To start with, the discussion on the other thread dealt with civilian security contractors or ship's crews defending privately owned and operated vessels. At no point in our earlier conversation were we discussing weapons for warships. That is a nuance that invalidates your idea's connection with this article.




NETFIRES is perfectly adaptable to a freighter as an armed merchant freighter weapon, but that is NOT the point. 




As always, you must bend reality and other's comments to keep your marginal concept afloat. Again, it was never an issue of whether a missile system can be used against small craft, it was always an issue of rules of engagement and the principals of elevation of force, and appropriate weapons for civilian use in response to pirates equipped with outboard motor boats. As was made clear to you on the earlier thread you will not legally engage a pirate at 1,000 meters since it is impossible to determine if the craft is hostile until they close with you (unless they were crazy enough to engage with machine guns and RPG's while in a bouncing skiff over 3,000 feet away from you, and that has never been their M.O.D.). This article does not support your goofy plan of arming civilian craft with Spike or Javelin missiles, it is about equipping the USN's new Littoral Combat ships. You know the differences in their requirements, don't you? Or, would you like an explanation of their dissimilar purposes?



???????????????????????????????????????????????


 

Small skiffs approach and lookout spots at 1000 meters. Put stern to them and open range. They now chase you. At that point it becomes OBVIOUS.  Start shooting as soon as you can with whatever you have.


 



You are a funny little guy Herald, so keep ROTFLMAO'ing. Be assured are laughing with you.




Laugh away. If you think a freighter captain is laughing then you are not reading WHAT THEY ARE SAYING.




Check Six



Best way to kill a pirateas a merchant-from your own stern as you run away.  




Rocky






Herald

Herald, in no way do you support your position. You make absurd assertions that freighter captains are clamoring for guided missiles so that they might kill any vessel that wanders within 1,000 meters of their ship. You might want to provide a source for that if you want to avoid being thought of in the same way that HTJ, BW, and FS are.

 
An article written about the LCS does not justify your goofy idea.
 
Check Six 
 
Rocky
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    I said that Freighter Captains clamor for something to be done about pirates..   5/19/2009 7:45:56 PM
It is I who said a rocket up the kazoo is something to do about pirates. The freighter captains want something done (general statement). I suggested a "so simple to use a six year old child could use it" specific solution (optical tracking point and launch rocket blows the pirates in a skiff up) and a simple common sense legal rule (they are chasing me and they won't leave me alone) legal rule of when to use it. 
 
Got a better idea that actually WORKS? Lay it out there.

Herald
 
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