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USN Can't Get Enough 737s

June 23, 2009: The U.S. Navy has increased its order for its new P-8A maritime reconnaissance aircraft, from 114 to 123. The navy has found more uses for the new aircraft, which will replace 161 elderly P-3Cs. The first two P-8 development aircraft recently flew for the first time. A third development P-8 will fly before the end of the year.

The U.S. Navy is using a militarized version of the Boeing 737 airliner as the P-8A. The B-737 has been used successfully since the 1960s as an airliner. It first flew in 1965, and over 5,000 have been built.

Thus the P-8A is a modified Boeing 737-700C commercial aircraft. Earlier, in 2001, the navy began using the 737 as a cargo/passenger transport (the C-40A), and 19 have been built, eleven for the navy (the rest for the air force). The 78 ton aircraft can carry 121 passengers, or eight cargo pallets (or a combination of both, usually three pallets and 70 passengers.) Max range is 5,600 kilometers. It normally carries a crew of five (two pilots, one crew chief, one loadmaster and one transport safety specialist, which is what the navy calls a flight attendant). The air force got four V-40Bs, which are basically executive transports, that can also operate as airborne headquarters. The other six air force aircraft are C-40Cs, which is basically the same as the C-40A. The C-40A is operated by navy reservists, and is mainly used to rush needed parts or personnel to where the fleet needs them. The C-40A replaced the C-137 (a military version of the 148 ton B-707.)

The P-8 version of the B-737 has a cruise speed for the 737 to 910 kilometers an hour and a crew of 10-11 pilots and equipment operators. The P-8A has hard points on the wings for torpedoes or missiles. The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each. The navy also plans to order another seven C-40As.

New sensors are cheaper, lighter and more reliable. So the P-8 will also be available for land reconnaissance (as P-3Cs are already being used) and for electronic reconnaissance as well. The navy expects the P-8 to be a very versatile and reliable aircraft.

 

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SAE       6/23/2009 11:41:06 AM
The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.
 
Were not all the so-called engineers on this blog telling us this could not be done when we were discussing using an airliner for the B-3. See comments in the April 17, 2008 article "B-1B Bested By B-52." I guess they were wrong and I was right.
 
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Bob Roberts       6/23/2009 11:53:19 AM
I am by no means an engineer but it is my understanding that the bomb bay on the P-8 is relitivally small, located near the rear of the aircraft, and has a relatively small load that it can carry; thereby making it's introduction somewhat easier.  In no way could it be confused with the huge centrally located bomb of the B-52.
 
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Herald12345    You were wrong and they were right.   6/23/2009 11:55:36 AM

The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.

 

Were not all the so-called engineers on this blog telling us this could not be done when we were discussing using an airliner for the B-3. See comments in the April 17, 2008 article "B-1B Bested By B-52." I guess they were wrong and I was right.


She comes with a new strengthened wing and a new strengthened barrel and a new floor frame for that barrel. Don't kid yourself. This bird is a maritime patrol bomber  masquerading as an airliner:


 
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Shaken       6/23/2009 1:48:02 PM
The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.

Were not all the so-called engineers on this blog telling us this could not be done when we were discussing using an airliner for the B-3. See comments in the April 17, 2008 article "B-1B Bested By B-52." I guess they were wrong and I was right.
She comes with a new strengthened wing and a new strengthened barrel and a new floor frae for that barrel. Don't kid yourself. This bird is a maritime patrol bomber  masquerading as an airliner:

Many maritime patrol aircraft have been converted from airliners. The P-3 Orion, which the P-8 replaces, is simply a Lockheed Electra airliner. Similarly, the British Nimrod is a derivative of the ill-fated deHavallind Comet. (Perhaps people don't realize this, as the airliners they derive from are long out of service.)

 
Structural concerns of an airliner as bomber concept are valid, although the profile of most bombing has been changed by PGMs. The dynamic stresses of punching off a full load of bombs can be quite considerable and not something I'd like to have routinely imposed on an airframe that was designed for minimized weight based on very low dynamic stresses (rarely more or less than 1 G load on the airframe.) Since carpet bombing is probably a thing of the past, this is not so much an issue (although you do need to be able to safely ditch a full load in an emergency.) Also, I'd hate to try a low-altitude intrusion in an airliner; which is not stressed for blasting along at treetop level, its jet exhaust frying chickens in the barnyard.

Airliner as a bomber concepts only work when the airspace is uncontested or the work is to be done exclusively with long-range cruise missiles. Long range missiles are so expensive, they offset any cost-benefit an off the shelf bomber might offer. And uncontested airspace is not a good assumption for a warplane that isn't going to spend its life over vast miles of ocean.

A modern bomber needs stealth and a certain amount of maneuverability to survive in the face of a modern IADS. Airliner bomb trucks can not offer that and thus are not given serious consideration. As for bombing in the counter-insurgency mode, you are probably better off with a good sized flock of Reaper (or equivalent aircraft) that provided a widely dispersed and persistent coverage for troops in the field. These aircraft are exceedingly valuable as they provide ISR coverage, in addition to the occasional dropping of bombs in the CAS role.

 -- Shaken - out --

PS: How many times do you get to quote General Turgidson in your average day?
 
 
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WarNerd       6/23/2009 1:55:52 PM

The P-8A will be the first 737 designed with a bomb bay and four wing racks for weapons. The P-8 costs about $275 million each.

Were not all the so-called engineers on this blog telling us this could not be done when we were discussing using an airliner for the B-3. See comments in the April 17, 2008 article "B-1B Bested By B-52." I guess they were wrong and I was right.


You have a cargo bay modified into an internal bomb bay with a 5 position rotary bomb rack designed for light weight torpedoes.  Let's call that 5,000 lbs.
 
4x wing hard points designed for Harpoon derivative missiles, let's call those 1,500 lbs each, for a total of 6,000 lbs.
 
Grand total 11,000 lbs or 5.5 tons.  About 2/3 of the load of a Super Hornet.  That's a really good bomber.   /s
 
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Rick9719    Why the 737   6/23/2009 6:46:58 PM
Does anyone know why it's always a 30 year old airliner design for maritime patrol craft?  Why not use a 787?
 
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49erDweet       6/23/2009 10:54:33 PM
Modifying tried and true and off the shelf is just cheaper by factors beyond reckoning, I reckon.
 
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LB    Confusing Article   6/24/2009 12:15:52 AM
First this article states the USN is buying 9 more P-8s but does not mention any specifics.  Then it mostly talks about the C-40A.  The C-40A was purchased to replace the C-9 as the main USN logistical support aircraft.  While it's more capable than the C-9 the USN used to operate 29 C-9s and now has only 11 C-40As.  The USN should actually have more C-40As
 
It does not seem any service has enough transport aircraft which simply means the existing aircraft will have more hours put on them every year than was originally planned meaning they will have to be replaced earlier.  Moreover, the short fall is normally dealt with by leasing civilian aircraft, especially airliners to move personal, and by using commercial air freight to move many items- many units in the field depend on FedEx now.  These services are less likely to work in an actual war with an enemy that has some ability to contest the airspace or attack the airfields.
 
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Shaken       6/24/2009 12:55:35 AM
Does anyone know why it's always a 30 year old airliner design for maritime patrol craft?  Why not use a 787?
Because the 737-700 is not a 30 year old airliner.

The 787 is too big (thus expensive) and too new (not available in time). Although delays in KC-X may allow THAT requirement to be filled by the 787. KC-787 would be a real boon, as it is ideally sized for the task and should be the most efficient aircraft possible for the job.

The P-8 is based on the 737 Next Generation, which dates from the mid 1990s. This shares a common basic configuration with the 737-100 of 1967, but is essentially an entirely new aircraft. The fuselage has a higher degree of commonality with the historic aircraft, sharing a common diameter. The wing is entirely new, which is critical as that is what makes the biggest difference in the cost-per-mile of an airliner. The 737-NG aircraft use modern versions of the CFM-56 engine, which was introduced to the 737 in its second generation, the mid-1980s 737-400/500 series.

The P-8 Poseidon uses the 129.5 foot fuselage of the 737-800, which in passenger service would normally seat 175 passengers (up to 189 in a dense configuration.) This is combined with the long-range optimized wing of the 737-900ER (which replaced the 757-200 in Boeing's passenger lineup.) The design replaced the blended (swept-up) winglets of the 737-NG airliners with raked-tips similar to the 767-400ER. The P-8 also incorporates six new fuel tanks, in place of the forward and rear cargo holds. The result is a highly-reliable and highly-efficient airframe that supports safe long-range, relatively low-cost operations.
 
-- Shaken - out --

 
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kirby1       6/27/2009 9:59:25 PM
P-8 packs a 5.5 ton bomb load, one five shot rotary launcher and four wing points for a total load of 9 large weapons.
 
Compare to a B-52s' 8shot CSRL and a two HSAB pylons for a total loadout of 20 ALCMs weighing in at approximately 30 tons. (Thats the weight of the missiles themselves, not the launcher and pylons.) total payload: Approximately 30 tons.  Also of note is the nature of the weapons. The torpedoes and Harpoons are largely self guided. ALCM requires Inertial navigation inputs, and GPS inputs for CALCM.
 
While PGMs allow for a reduction in the number of weapons, those weapons are typically heavier, and require more support from the plane. Data for targetting, hydrualics for rotating the rotary launchers, pressurized air for keeping the electronics cool. As the number of weapons increases, the total demands increase exponentially. (Hydraulic pressure, air pressure and volume, wiring for data, power supplies for spinning up weapons and generating targetting signals to be sent to the weapons.) The weight keeps increasing in an exponential fashion as you add each weapon.

The P-8 probably exhibits the most firepower one can squeeze into an airliner air frame. But a dedicated bomber airframe can do a whole lot more. 
  

 
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