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Subject: ww2 Yamato vs Iowa class
capt soap    9/17/2005 12:55:11 PM
How would this fight turn out? the Iowa's 16 inch guns against the Yamato 18 guns? The iowa had radar,which one would sink the other 1 on 1.
 
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elclip1    Glorious    7/8/2009 10:07:58 PM

Herald, Halsey only had victories in the South Pacific...try as you might victory really counts for a lot.  Sorry, but whilst I acknowledge your many complaint about Halsey, I also acknowledge his many SUCCESSES...something you really need to try.

 

Eclip the précis I read gave Glorious two, literally, courses of action that would have let Glorious escape.  She couldn't have out distanced the Germans, but that isn't the same thing as saying the Germans could close the distance...instead Glorious chose a course of action that allowed the Germans to close to gun range.  It wasn't just a failure of aviation knowledge, it was a failure of NAVAL understanding...



 
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elclip1    Glorious    7/8/2009 10:29:39 PM
 
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Herald12345       7/9/2009 4:05:55 AM


Herald, Halsey only had victories in the South Pacific...try as you might victory really counts for a lot.  Sorry, but whilst I acknowledge your many complaint about Halsey, I also acknowledge his many SUCCESSES...something you really need to try.

Name a success THAT WAS HIS..
 
Eclip the précis I read gave Glorious two, literally, courses of action that would have let Glorious escape.  She couldn't have out distanced the Germans, but that isn't the same thing as saying the Germans could close the distance...instead Glorious chose a course of action that allowed the Germans to close to gun range.  It wasn't just a failure of aviation knowledge, it was a failure of NAVAL understanding...





INCORRECT, Acasta shows how the Glorious could have escaped and how Sprague at Samar DID escape. An attacker with cripples on his hands has to detach forces and reduce speed with part or all of his force to rescue damaged ships and men in the water. One torpedo hit reduced Scharnhorst to 21 knots. A better handled Glorious presumably with her Swordfish launched and hunting, could have made such a cripple and forced a disengagement before Glorious was ever in gun range. AIRPOWER is a frightening thing to ground troops or surface ships, when the enemy has it, and you don't. It hobbles your movement.and frees his.
 
Herald
 
 
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Leech       7/9/2009 5:12:10 AM
It is interesting about Pearl Harbor, that Japanis Navy, which was first to use air force and carriers as basics of her sea power, did not care about US aircraft carriers, and concentrated about catching US battleships, not carriers, in port.
 
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JFKY    Leech   7/9/2009 9:55:48 AM
I would not claim that the IJN did not care about the US CV's...it was as much by luck that they were absent that December morning...a week or so sooner or a day later and several of them would have been sitting in port with the BB's....
 
I don't know Herald, looks to me like Halsey won Guadalcanal and then the Solomons Campaign...unless you want to claim he WASN'T in Command in the South Pacific or that we lost in our advance from Guadalcanal thru the Solomons.  I'd call them victories, the Japanese sure acknowledged them as DEFEATS.
 
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elclip1    Glorious/Halsey   7/9/2009 12:48:45 PM
(Having trouble posting from my MAC - trying the PC)
 
In Winton's "Carrier Glorious", the German action report shows that Marschall held the Battlecruisers on their original heading for a while after spotting the enemy. He did this to allow the ships to raise steam for a high speed run. Once this was done, he turned toward Glorious. Making 26 knots and accelerating eventually to around 29 knots, Scharnhorst began firing at 28,000 yards making the first hit on the third salvo at about 14 miles.

By the time Glorious saw S&G the game was up. With cold boilers and no time to bring them on line, there was no chance to escape. The Carrier was doomed from the moment she was spotted by the German Group.


Halsey. I give him credit for the early actions in the war. His early raids in the South Pacific were good for moral, though of little real impact. The Doolittle raid could have gone better, but it accomplished the goals set for it.  Most accounts of the Guadalcanal action indicate that Halsey was a welcome boost when he relieved Ghormley. His willingness to mix it up and go in harms way was a sharp contrast to Ghormley and Fletcher too. 

If you've ever read Spruance's bio, you'd find that he was aghast at the lack of structure and discipline within Halsey's staff when Spruance took over the fleet before Midway. Halsey was no great thinker, that much is certain. 
His main focus seems to have been to attack the enemy whenever and wherever he found them. In 42, some of that was needed. Of course disaster was always a possibility with that approach. Halsey slipped in and back out of Pearl right after the attack and went looking for the Japanese fleet with Enterprise. Had he found them, he probably would have been destroyed and one of our few carriers lost. It's a good thing that he didn't find them, but he was a fighter.

Most agree that, eventually, the war just got to big and too complex for The bull.

 
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Herald12345    Beijng in the chair doesn't mean you get CREDIT   7/9/2009 2:07:14 PM

I would not claim that the IJN did not care about the US CV's...it was as much by luck that they were absent that December morning...a week or so sooner or a day later and several of them would have been sitting in port with the BB's....

 

I don't know Herald, looks to me like Halsey won Guadalcanal and then the Solomons Campaign...unless you want to claim he WASN'T in Command in the South Pacific or that we lost in our advance from Guadalcanal thru the Solomons.  I'd call them victories, the Japanese sure acknowledged them as DEFEATS.

Fletcher-Midway us the example.
 
Cactus Air Force, Marines, and Army won the island. The FLEET won the naval battle by dying for it. Halsey was an actual command cypher; as in a big fat ZERO.
 
 
That idiot, Halsey, had neither.
 
 
A disordered mind produces chaos. Halsey was not only disordered in his mind, but also incredibly stupid and vain. 
 
Herald

 
 
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JFKY    Sorry Herald   7/9/2009 2:55:33 PM
More than a command zero...he actually visited Guadalcanal, unlike Ghormley...he was an active commander, and I notice you neglect to mention the advance up the Solomons Chain.
 
That is not to say that Halsey was a GREAT commander, but rather to dispute he was  BAD commander...he may not have been Grant, but neither was he McClellan, put him in the Meade category, OK, but not spectacular.
 
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Herald12345    Beijng in the chair doesn't mean you get CREDIT   7/9/2009 3:40:09 PM

(Having trouble posting from my MAC - trying the PC)

Same here. we are in the muddle of a PRC Bandit Cyber attack so it may be your server undergoung a DoS attack.

In Winton's "Carrier Glorious", the German action report shows that Marschall held the Battlecruisers on their original heading for a while after spotting the enemy. He did this to allow the ships to raise steam for a high speed run. Once this was done, he turned toward Glorious. Making 26 knots and accelerating eventually to around 29 knots, Scharnhorst began firing at 28,000 yards making the first hit on the third salvo at about 14 miles.

What was the wind direction then? That is important because surface ship tactics against carriers was to get to windward of them and stay  there to leep the carrier from making a turn into the wind to launch aircraft.

By the time Glorious saw S&G the game was up. With cold boilers and no time to bring them on line, there was no chance to escape. The Carrier was doomed from the moment she was spotted by the German Group.

No CAP and nobody posted in the observation top, nobody monitoring the German signals guard channels are still puzzlers to me.. The problem was as I understand it, the S&G smoke appeared and D'Orly Hughes detached one of his destroyers to take a look. He didn't order someone aloft into observation until it was too late to take a gun director look? No alert five aircraft as well means that if that captain had  survived there would have been two court martials at Scapa Flow. I know a pilot commanding a cerrier in those waters;  seeing smoke would be very nervous, and would have turned into the wind and launched something, even if was a Hurricane to get a look.  Yes, I know the situation may have not looked that desperate on paper, but this was an evacuation after a defeat. It was that desperate.     

Halsey. I give him credit for the early actions in the war. His early raids in the South Pacific were good for moral, though of little real impact. The Doolittle raid could have gone better, but it accomplished the goals set for it.  Most accounts of the Guadalcanal action indicate that Halsey was a welcome boost when he relieved Ghormley. His willingness to mix it up and go in harms way was a sharp contrast to Ghormley and Fletcher too. 

Fitch and Fletcher were raiding, too. What were they? Chopped liver? Admiral Hoover, one of our better naval strategists and a decent carrier task force commander under Spruance during the Kwajalein operation, wasn't that impressed with the "Bull's" results or the Bull either. He wanted the jerk court martialed.......twice.
 
If you've ever read Spruance's bio, you'd find that he was aghast at the lack of structure and discipline within Halsey's staff when Spruance took over the fleet before Midway. Halsey was no great thinker, that much is certain. 
 
Not surprising. Spruance never hated anyone but he sure disliked Miles Browning as a professional.  Notice that Spruance never criticized the person; he analyzed the mistakes.

His main focus seems to have been to attack the enemy whenever and wherever he found them. In 42, some of that was needed. Of course disaster was always a possibility with that approach. Halsey slipped in and back out of Pearl right after the attack and went looking for the Japanese fleet with Enterprise. Had he found them, he probably would have been destroyed and one of our few carriers lost. It's a good thing that he didn't find them, but he was a fighter.

Brawling is not how you use airpower. The metaphor  in boxing is jab, jab, jab. Cut him up, and then knock him out  This was actually a lot of what Fletcher tried to do, as a fleet commander and makes him a good admiral. Geiger, Woods, Mulcahy, all tried to do the same.at Guadalcanal.

Most agree that, eventually, the war just got to big and too complex for The Bull.

It was already too complex at Jutland. I relooked that battle. I damn Beatty far more, and I have a lot more respect for poor John Jellicoe. He was actually a GREAT admiral foiled by an incompetent staff and insubordinant subordinates who refused to follow Jellicoe's battle instructions (especially contact reports).&nbs
 
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Herald12345    Beijng in the chair doesn't mean you get CREDIT   7/9/2009 4:03:44 PM

More than a command zero...he actually visited Guadalcanal, unlike Ghormley...he was an active commander, and I notice you neglect to mention the advance up the Solomons Chain.

 Who cares? Vandegrift was ON THE GROUND. As for active command I just gave you an example of how active Halsey was. he couldn't lead or manage worth a damn.

That is not to say that Halsey was a GREAT commander, but rather to dispute he was  BAD commander...he may not have been Grant, but neither was he McClellan, put him in the Meade category, OK, but not spectacular.
 
Not even McClellan was Halsey. McClellan could PLAN and he could staff.  I also don't like that cheap shot against Ghormley. The man was mentally ill and suffered from acute exhaustion.  He did far better than the gutless coward Fredendall did.  
 
 
Notice the lie that Halsey wrote to Nimitz to explain how he fouled up the Santa Cruz?  Halsey further screwed up staff and communications pre-battle as well and did not pay attention to Op 20_G estimates of enemy forces present? No wonder Kincaid called it absolute CHAOS while he was being mauled at Santa Cruz.. Strictly amateur hour.

Herald
 
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