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Subject: Cheonan: The other side of the story...
DarthAmerica    7/29/2010 6:04:12 AM
BEIJING - South Korean Prime Minister Lee Myung-bak has claimed "overwhelming evidence" that a North Korean torpedo sank the corvette Cheonan on March 26, killing 46 sailors. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton claimed that there’s "overwhelming evidence" in favor of the theory that North Korea sank the South Korean Navy warship Cheonan. But the articles of proof presented so far by military investigators to an official inquiry board have been scanty and inconsistent. There’s yet another possibility, that a U.S. rising mine sank the Cheonan in a friendly-fire accident. In the recent U.S.-China strategic talks in Shanghai and Beijing, the Chinese side dismissed the official scenario presented by the Americans and their South Korean allies as not credible. This conclusion was based on an independent technical assessment by the Chinese military, according to a Beijing-based military affairs consultant to the People Liberation Army. Hardly any of the relevant facts that counter the official verdict have made headline news in either South Korea or its senior ally, the United States. The first telltale sign of an official smokescreen involves the location of the Choenan sinking - Byeongnyeong Island (pronounced Pyongnang) in the Yellow Sea. On the westernmost fringe of South Korean territory, the island is dominated by a joint U.S.-Korean base for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) operations. The sea channel between Byeongnyeong and the North Korean coast is narrow enough for both sides to be in artillery range of each other. Anti-sub warfare is based on sonar and acoustic detection of underwater craft. Since civilian traffic is not routed through the channel, the noiseless conditions are near-perfect for picking up the slightest agitation, for example from a torpedo and any submarine that might fire it. North Korea admits it does not possess an underwater craft stealthy enough to slip past the advanced sonar and audio arrays around Byeongnyeong Island, explained North Korean intelligence analyst Kim Myong Chol in a news release. "The sinking took place not in North Korean waters but well inside tightly guarded South Korean waters, where a slow-moving North Korean submarine would have great difficulty operating covertly and safely, unless it was equipped with AIP (air-independent propulsion) technology." The Cheonan sinking occurred in the aftermath of the March 11-18 Foal Eagle Exercise, which included anti-submarine maneuvers by a joint U.S.-South Korean squadron of five missile ships. A mystery surrounds the continued presence of the U.S. missile cruisers for more than eight days after the ASW exercise ended. Only one reporter, Joohee Cho of ABC News, picked up the key fact that the Foal Eagle flotilla curiously included the USNS Salvor, a diving-support ship with a crew of 12 Navy divers. The lack of any minesweepers during the exercise leaves only one possibility: the Salvor was laying bottom mines. Ever since an American cruiser was damaged by one of Saddam Hussein's rising mines, also known as bottom mines, in the Iraq War, the U.S. Navy has pushed a crash program to develop a new generation of mines. The U.S. Naval Mine and Anti-Submarine Warfare Command has also been focused on developing counterparts to the fearsome Chinese naval "assassin's mace," which is propelled by a rocket engine. A rising mine, which is effective only in shallow waters, rests atop a small platform on the sea floor under a camouflage of sand and gravel. Its detection system uses acoustics and magnetic readings to pick up enemy ships and submarines. When activated, jets of compressed air or solid-fuel rockets lift the bomb, which self-guides toward the magnetic center of the target. The blast rips the keel, splitting the ship or submarine into two neat pieces, just as was done to the RKOS Cheonan. A lateral-fired torpedo, in contrast, "holes" the target's hull, tilting the vessel in the classic war movie manner. The South Korean government displayed to the press the intact propeller shaft of a torpedo that supposedly struck the Cheonan. Since torpedoes travel between 40-50 knots per hour (which is faster than collision tests for cars), a drive shaft would crumble upon impacting the hull and its bearing and struts would be shattered or bent by the high-powered blast. The initial South Korean review stated that the explosive was gunpowder, which would conform to North Korea's crude munitions. This claim was later overturned by the inquiry board, which found the chemical residues to be similar to German advanced explosives. Due to sanctions against Pyongyang and its few allies, it is hardly credible that North Korea could obtain NATO-grade ordnance. Thus, the mystery centers on the USNS Salvor, which happened to be yet right near Byeongyang Island at the time of the Cheonan sinking and far from its home base, Pearl Harbor. The inquiry board in Seoul has not questioned the officers and divers o
 
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smitty237    Let's Try Reason   8/27/2010 1:07:45 AM

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found the last few posts to be absolutely, totally bizarre.  Wow. 

 
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SantaClaws       8/27/2010 8:22:46 AM
It's like word diarrhea.
 
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DarthAmerica       8/28/2010 6:07:23 PM
Its amazing how little most of you know about what happened AND the dynamics of this region yet you are so readily agreeable to accepting that North Korea sunk this boat. Such naive blind trust makes you extremely vulnerable to deception.  It would not be the first time governments lied or concealed the truth...

AT BEST it's possible North Korea was involved but certainly not verifiable based on publicly available data... 


-DA 
 
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SantaClaws       8/28/2010 8:07:02 PM

Its amazing how little most of you know about what happened AND the dynamics of this region yet you are so readily agreeable to accepting that North Korea sunk this boat. Such naive blind trust makes you extremely vulnerable to deception.  It would not be the first time governments lied or concealed the truth...




AT BEST it's possible North Korea was involved but certainly not verifiable based on publicly available data... 







-DA 

It all started when the aliens landed in Roswell over 50 years ago. They were a lizard race led by the enigmatic "Diana". Using her superior alien technology and exterior "assets" she quickly took control of the US government by orchestrating the assassination of JFK. She also provided the technology to make the moon landing possible. I'm not talking about the rockets, but the video camera, backdrop and studio used to film the "real" landings.
 
Flash forward to today where "Diana" indoctrinated GWB into her society, now known as the "Lizardluminati" and planned out the 911 attacks. Using the same camera technology to fake the moon landings, they projected images of planes flying into the towers when it was actually UFOs using advanced alien technology vaporizing the steel cores of the buildings. This was to get the US to take over the Middle East, because as everyone knows, lizards love the warm and arid climates the desert provides.
 
This latest incident was also orchestrated by "Diana" to get the US to declare war on N. Korea. Because as we all know, the only thing lizards love more than sand is bulgogi.
 
 
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DarthAmerica    @SantaClaws   8/29/2010 12:43:54 AM
You could have just said you don't understand.

Thanks 
-DA 
 
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VelocityVector       8/29/2010 2:05:05 AM

You could have just said you don't understanThanks 

-DA 


Darth, you have not established a case with argumentation and support for your wild accusations here.  Please do so else you are in the same league as other conspiracy theorists like the Roswell-ians/Friedmans.  I know enough that we can and should expect better from you.  Let's have it.

v^2

 
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smitty237    Darth   8/29/2010 2:37:56 AM

Its amazing how little most of you know about what happened AND the dynamics of this region yet you are so readily agreeable to accepting that North Korea sunk this boat. Such naive blind trust makes you extremely vulnerable to deception.  It would not be the first time governments lied or concealed the truth...
 

AT BEST it's possible North Korea was involved but certainly not verifiable based on publicly available data... 
 

-DA 
Sarcasm aside, Darth, I think you are a little off base.  You cautioned everyone not to jump to conclusioins in the immediate aftermath of this incident and to withhold judgment until after an investigation had been conducted.  An international team of experienced investigators were assigned to investigate the cause of the Cheonan sinking, and as a result of their investigation they concluded that the Cheonan had been sunk by a torpedo, most likely fired from a North Korean midget submarine.  Of cours the North Koreans, Chinese, and Russians refuted the findings of the investigation, but they most definitely have a dog in this fight.  Personally, I expected the United States and South Korea to bury the findings if it was concluded that the NORKs sunk her, so I was surprised when the announcement came that the official conclusion was that NORK sunk the Cheonan.  That conclusion was seemingly backed up by reports that Kim Jong Il had afterwards visited a NORK naval base and award its commander a medal, presumably for its role in sinking the Cheonan. 
If you'll go back through the previous thread on this subject you'll see that I was one of the guys that cautioned everyone against jumping to conclusions until we had all the facts, but now that an investigation has been conducted I think it's fair and reasonable to make personal judgements as to what we think happened.  I think a lot of us that have studied history are well aware of the politics of the region, and the topic of Korea has come up many times on this site.  Nobody wants another war in Korea, and it is a testament to the cool heads in the South (I'm sure aided by counsel from the United States) that has prevented this crisis from escalating into full blown war. 
 
What would it take for you to accept that a NORK torpedo sank the Cheonan?  I seriously doubt that ALL of the data will be released to the public anytime soon, if ever.  Sure, I guess this could be a top down conspiracy in which the North is being set up to take the blame, but that means that a whole lot of people, including civilians with professional reputations at stake, would have to be in on the whole conspiracy and willing to go along with the lie.  Once again, I guess this is possible, but why would they?  What end would it serve?  The South did not retaliate against the North, so it couldn't have been because they wanted to create a pretext for war with North Korea.  So what is it then?
 
I don't have blind trust in anything, particularly the government.  I believe none of what I hear and only half of what I see, but there comes a time when you have to make judgements and/or based upon your own observations and assessment of the data.  I guess one could go through life believing that everyone is lying to them all of the time and that nothing anyone says is ever true, but that's not a life I would want to live. 

 
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SantaClaws       8/29/2010 2:43:01 AM
You're right I don't understand why people will always cling to the most illogical conclusions when the most obvious answer is staring them straight in the face.
 
But just so we are clear...
 
North Korea, has been at war with S. Korea since the 50's. Since that time they've kidnapped S. Korea nationals, attempted to assassinate the president of S. Korea, blown up a S. Korean airliner, dug massive tunnels into S. Korea in preparation for an invasion, developed nuclear weapons despite the only other nuclear power on the peninsula being China (their ally), have thousands of artillery pieces aimed at Seoul (a nonmilitary target), initiated multiple sea battles with S. Korea warships and even kidnapped Korea fisherman since the Cheonan sank.
 
versus

The US is S. Korea's ally.
 
You want us to believe that the US is responsible for the sinking of the Cheonan. Let's weigh the two former paragraphs. Maybe I don't have such an indepth understanding of the politics of the Korea peninsula, such as an expert as yourself, but when you put the last two paragraphs into perspective I'm stopping short of calling you bat shit crazy. Throwing out a simple metallurgy test that can tell you where the metal was mined, made into a torpedo and shipped to whoever, please shed some light on the "dynamics" of the region. And please do not be so vague as you were last time, ie. the video of the Titanic, and expect us to infer your conclusion that Jake and Rose were N. Korean commandos who were sent to sink the Cheonan while engaging in their romantic trist.

The best thing about conspiracy theories is that people who claim them use the lack of evidence as further proof that the conspiracy exist. The inverse is also true, where more evidence to disclaim said conspiracy is more proof that the conspirators have even greater power than initially imagined, which is how they are able to manipulate the facts so easily. The other poster was right, it's a waste of time talking to conspiracy theorist because can make themselves believe anything.
 
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SantaClaws       8/29/2010 3:21:15 AM
DA, I'm not an expert like yourself, but this is what the Koreans pulled up near the Cheonan. Are you familiar with this US mine design? I'm definitely thinking you are right and it might be a US sea laid claymore or something similar that we have not heard of.
 
http://news.joins.com/component/htmlphoto_mmdata/201005/htm_2010052102360120002010-002.JPG" height="502" width="2500" />
  http://japanfocus.org/data/reuters_photo.png" />

 
I'm also not familiar with the Korean English numbering system, so could you please tell me what Korean number that is on the torpedo mine drive shaft coupling? I'm surprised that someone so intimately familiar with all matters Asian didn't see this on Korean television when it was aired in May. The South Koreans must have been foaming at the mouth when they saw a N. Korean torpedo US mine being displayed on television and the perpetrators of the attack exposed for all their conspiring evil doing evilness.
 
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SantaClaws       8/29/2010 4:15:02 AM
And if anyone else is interested, this is the presentation given by the S. Koreans translated into English.
 
 
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