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Subject: ROKN Patrol Corvette sucken by DPRK torpedo boat
YelliChink    3/26/2010 12:10:07 PM
Just happened 2150 Korean local time. Chinese reports say that it was DPRK torpedo boat. The ROKN corvette sunk is probably a 1200t PCC. I can't read Korean so I am not sure which one exactly. At this moment, 59 out of 104 crew have been saved so far. Best wishes to the still missing ones and condolence to families of lost sailors.
 
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Mikko    Delivering means   5/4/2010 4:15:29 AM
To crank this one bit back to the Cheonan topic, there was a connection to North Korea too.
 
Urban turban slurban. How much access does a person have to different forms of media and networks, that's what matters. Do they have access to only state controlled media; what are their social hubs like? Are they able to connect to masses through social networking online and do they have tools to express their support to these masses online?  If there is an opposition, can it get its message through and to whom?
 
Sometimes it might be enough for a community to have one internet connection and one person with access to predictable masses. 

Yes Darth, this is a very relevant issue and you are right to bring it up. We westerners understand information flow in a far different manner and take free access, lack of censorship and two-way flow for granted.
 
We even might be tricked to see people as oppressed. They might be in our standards, but do they feel oppressed themselves: "Good day Sir, if I may ask, do you live in a rogue state with a maniac dictator running things? ... No? Well, in any case, how would you like to be liberated?"
 
Being liberated by outsiders is probably the most annoying thing that could happen to you. 
 
I would love to discuss hypothetical ways to collapse undesirable regimes with information warfare only; lethal weapons on high defensive alert, information warfare assets on the offensive. With all the money poured in traditional warfare, what could one do to target a regime in a non-lethal way with all those dollars? Save the blood, just waste treasure.
 
With all the effort and money put into weapons, fuel, maintenance, logistics, salaries and ordnance...  Hell, you could construct a digital leaflet system: Mass produce millions of hand held communicating devices for satellite broadcasted messages, customize your logic of influence into them and organize a revolution by bringing means to masses. Deliver them by smuggling and dropping the devices to the people of the regime you want to knock down.
 
As any air campaign against Iran or NoK would cost tens of billions of dollars, how much message; soil, seed and water for revolution, could you deliver to the targeted populace and how much closer to your goal would that get you? 
 
M
 
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Mikko    One more thing   5/4/2010 4:47:51 AM
There was this one set of hypothesis to add, something that I think explains why people love problems:
 
1) I fear that bribing a villain to the extent that he becomes superrich is somehow perceived as more wrong than sacrificing hundreds of soldiers to achieve the same thing: Removing the villain from enemy's chain of command.
 
2) A soldier's death matters only to the relatives and friends of the soldier. A bribed villain who got away with everything is the shame of all nation. Undeserved prosperity is more wrong than 'our men' dying.
 
3) People like killing and mayhem and are somehow inclined into use of force. It's just fun (to those who won't go or haven't been to the places where "the killing is done")
 
4) Whatever the emotions, good or bad, people love the thrills of "our nation at war".  Those who pay for the thrills will never form a democratic alliance strong enough to defeat the thrill of war; the thrill experienced by those who don't experience war itself.
 
5) Massive death tolls are exciting, as long as it happens to outsiders and to masses of them. We identify to individuals, to women being stoned or to fathers being dragged to concetration camps. But we would happily sacrifice faceless masses just to enjoy good news coverage and a sixpack of beer to watch it with. We are practically incapable to connect a nuke to a burning baby.
 
Immediately as it is doable without endangering western interests (safety or economical), both Iran and Nok and all alike will be attacked. Because lots of wealthy people far away from action think it's exciting, and are bored.
 
M
 
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Hamilcar    From Strategy Page. WP.   5/4/2010 8:20:45 AM
 

South Korea And The Cost Of War

May 4, 2010: On March 26, 2010, North Koreahttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif" alt="" /> committed an act of war against South Korea. How did South Korea respond? They did nothing. The attack on the South Korean warship Cheonan killed 46 South Korean sailors. The attack was initially downplayed as an internal explosion, but according to South Korea?s Defense Minister, a torpedo attack was ?most likely? the cause of the sinking. Both American, and South Korean officers believe that the torpedo was a Chinese imported Yu-3G model. 

Instead of embracing the idea of a North Korean attack, President Lee Myung-bakhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif" alt="" /> of South Korea held off and adopted the stance that the sinking was caused by an internal explosion. Myung-bak even went as far to say ?Everyone believes that the military is trying to cover something up.? South Korea was clearly trying to suppress anything that would confirm North Korean involvement in the sinking of the ship.

Even though the cause has been verified to be a torpedo, South Korea still has yet to make a move. Why doesn?t the South Korean government at least plead to the UN after the North Koreans killed 46 sailors? The answer: They are not in the position to.

Seoul, the capitol of South Korea, is within  range of the North Korean "Korean People?s Army" (KPA) artillery, specifically the 620 Artillery Corps and the Kangdong Artillery Corps. Each corps possesses 6-12 brigades, each with 35-70 guns. Thus the KPA has approximately 1200 pieces pointing at Seoul. These weapons range from 155mm heavy guns to 240mm rocket launchers.

With this much fire power pointing at Seoul, what could South Korea do? If South Korea would respond militarily, they would be risking the safety of their capitol, which houses roughly twenty five percent of their population. Therefore, South Korea cannot respond.

So, what can South Korea do? Besides handling the event quietly, this act serves as a wakeup call. First, South Korea has learned that its military response options against the KPA are limited without risking the safety of Seoul. Second, South Korea has been reminded that hostilities with North Korea are possible. Tensions are still elevated. There is already talk of reorganizing South Korea?s armed forces to better deal with this sort of aggression. These changes would range from equipment to

 
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DarthAmerica    @Hamilcar   5/4/2010 11:10:54 AM
Hamilcar,

Seek help.

-DA 
 
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VelocityVector    A Classic Communist Read   5/4/2010 5:50:12 PM
Pyongyang sees US role in Cheonan sinking
By Kim Myong Chol
 
 
Kim Myong Chol is author of a number of books and papers in Korean, Japanese and English on North Korea, including Kim Jong-il's Strategy for Reunification. He has a PhD from the Democratic People's Republic of Korea's Academy of Social Sciences and is often called an "unofficial" spokesman of Kim Jong-il and North Korea.
 
v^2
 
 
 
 
 
 
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CFG    To think or not to think?   5/4/2010 6:47:10 PM
When one is emotional not much thinking is done. Even one have the impression that is thinking what is going on his/her head.
Then (another) one that know to create emotions to the emotional one will do so, as in pushing buttons. The emotional one will act according to those emotions and will be very limited in actions. Most likely will have the impression that is right.
 
In the other hand, if one is rational and have a system to think will have far more option to act.
 
For example as a way / system of thinking (rational, not emotional), first measurements, as Master Sun wrote. He is well know as Sun Tzu and a previous post from Darth remained me that some time a go I read "The Art of War" but didn't study it ... till now.
Measurements, quantities, calculations, comparisons, (that will lead to) victories.

Iran. To measure from what media present is wrong. Also, if one take the measurements from urban and apply to rural will end up with a wrong measurements. If one think that Iranian are very oppressed, that is valid for a segment of the population and false for the rest of the segments.
Do I make sense? http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
Darth was right with the rural population, one must know exact what urban mean and what media is covering, that was about in his post. Plus don't take the media for granted.
 
 
Another way or system is by thinking from above to low level: political goals, strategic level, operational and tactical level.
Both ways / systems require measurements, the exact perception and not misperception of reality.
 
 
When it came to Cheonan incident, we are well inside an act that provoke emotions. That require not to jump to conclusions or even worst, to actions in respond. Even today President of SoK avoided to name NoK as the author. No need for quick actions but to follow a system of thinking that will lead to ... let say victory.
 
Am I right or wrong? And why?
 
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Hamilcar       5/5/2010 2:03:24 AM

When one is emotional not much thinking is done. Even one have the impression that is thinking what is going on his/her head.

Where is there emotion?
 
Then (another) one that know to create emotions to the emotional one will do so, as in pushing buttons. The emotional one will act according to those emotions and will be very limited in actions. Most likely will have the impression that is right.

Where is the impression?

 
In the other hand, if one is rational and have a system to think will have far more option to act.

Rational options laid out must be based on data.

For example as a way / system of thinking (rational, not emotional), first measurements, as Master Sun wrote. He is well know as Sun Tzu and a previous post from Darth remained me that some time a go I read "The Art of War" but didn't study it ... till now.

Gixxer can quote Mahan for all he cares, but if he is wrong on fact then why trust his incorrect application of what he quotes?

Measurements, quantities, calculations, comparisons, (that will lead to) victories.
 
Who has done the measuring here?
 
Iran. To measure from what media present is wrong. Also, if one take the measurements from urban and apply to rural will end up with a wrong measurements. If one think that Iranian are very oppressed, that is valid for a segment of the population and false for the rest of the segments.
 
Not true. If the power base is less than 1/3, then what of the majority? 


Do I make sense? http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" />
 
Redefine and recollate. Your generalities do not make for specific proofs. 

Darth was right with the rural population, one must know exact what urban mean and what media is covering, that was about in his post. Plus don't take the media for granted.

No he wasn't.
 
 


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DarthAmerica    @Hamilcar   5/5/2010 2:55:29 AM
No you don't need to be clearer. We all know that you post solely to insult me. You've said as much in your various post. Unfortunately however, the more you do that, the more it becomes clearer to people that your ego and insanity are taking away from not only the quality of what you write but also of this forum. You are so focused on trying to prove yourself that you missed opportunity to learn and damaged your integrity in the process. Many posters including the few you show some minor amount of respect for have been trying to politely and not so politely hint that to you. If you cannot perceive that, then how could you perceive the complexities of ME/SWA social/economic conditions when the closest you've probably ever been to it is Google dot Com?

Now, after all the back and forth, where is strategy page on the subject of Cheonan? Barely beyond where it was a month ago when I explained that POLITICS, not physics or forensics would drive this and that for reasons of national security no responsible leader is going to jump to conclusions, all possibilities would be considered and that it would be unlikely that anyone would be blamed directly as a matter of practicality. Notice any official causes yet? Do you think they don't know exactly how this happened? I didn't think so. Such is the complexity of geopolitics.

-DA


P.S. No it doesn't hurt at all to be wrong. I'm human. That can happen. But when it does I admit it. Moreover, unlike you, I don't lose my cool and vomit vitriol and hatred for random people on the internet over trivial discussions on internet forums as if it were a matter of life and death. You still don't get it. Seriously, get help. 
 
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Nocturne       5/5/2010 4:50:49 AM
Thats why every decent forum needs it's slowman or a truck driver. Starting to miss em huh?
 
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Mikko       5/5/2010 6:10:34 AM

Thats why every decent forum needs it's slowman or a truck driver. Starting to miss em huh?

What, to work as a pressure valve?
 
I DO miss them, the banned poor buggers. Now that the "founding fathers" of SP are going after each other in an unexplainable mania, there's no chance for a rookie like me to fit in any discussion.  Not that I should fit in, but it's encouraging to even have a theoretical chance.
 
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