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Subject: ROKN Patrol Corvette sucken by DPRK torpedo boat
YelliChink    3/26/2010 12:10:07 PM
Just happened 2150 Korean local time. Chinese reports say that it was DPRK torpedo boat. The ROKN corvette sunk is probably a 1200t PCC. I can't read Korean so I am not sure which one exactly. At this moment, 59 out of 104 crew have been saved so far. Best wishes to the still missing ones and condolence to families of lost sailors.
 
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YelliChink       3/30/2010 10:45:32 AM

Those mines were moored mines that required contact detonators. They were powerful, I mean powerful. A ship as small as the Cheonan should show severe tear damage and deformation when its parts are raised; not as a slice effect either.
I still find the lack of a water column described puzzling.

As to the claims of infallibility and correctness? No such thing, especially by those who boast of it. 

H.
It was at night.
ROK government is trying very hard to make it looks like a mine incident. The problem is that a drifted contact mine does different damage pattern then what we've known so far. Contact from the side usually blows up the hull from the side, which causes flood and listing on one side. If it were a mine, then it looks more like a bottom mine. Bottom mines don't drift, but there are chances which they might roll, especially at places where underwater terrain are rough.
 
CAPTOR mines are too small to cut Cheonan in half. Those anti-sub mines don't have large enough warhead to cut the ship in half. We are talking about 60kg (CAPTOR) to 200kg (45-56NT) here.
 
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Reactive       3/30/2010 10:56:30 AM

Captors are not set/laid, nor are they designed to operate at the shallow depths, you claim. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

H.



That is true, the whole point of captor mines is to work at depth and remain undetected, they are extremely advanced weapons designed to be used in wartime and in the case of captor specifically, have a warhead under 100lbs.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/30/2010 11:04:36 AM

Captors are not set/laid, nor are they designed to operate at the shallow depths, you claim. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

H.


No, that isn't always true. But then perhaps you are not familiar with what I'm talking about. But then in your case specifically I wouldn't expect you to be. Folks, please stop believing that all the types of weapons of the world are on google. Hamilcar, this is missiles for merchants again. You will have egg on your face again if you continue. You can count on that. You need to think about what I'm saying.

-DA
 
 
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Reactive    Yeah but..   3/30/2010 11:08:53 AM
I think it might be a question of context, captor mines release a tracking object designed primarily for ASW, if what you mean is "a mine that releases a charge upwards and detonate" then that is possibly a different matter.
 
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Hamilcar    Cited article from previous.   3/30/2010 11:10:19 AM
 
READ IT.
 
For the rest of us, the Chen series of area shipping lane denial mines are designed to close straits like the Strait of Hormuz or the Malay Straits by using a fin steered flotation, or rocket-propelled explosive charges that ascend and chase to meet their intended surface targets. The search/track means is acoustic, and the operating minimum depth since these are usually designed to have at least ten to twenty ships warning interval before activation is usually at least 100 meters.    
 
The nearest Russian equivalent to the US anti-submarine (note that word) CAPTOR mine (releases a submarine chasing torpedo) masses two tonnes.

The Chinese rocket-propelled mines are also huge averaging about a tonne. It is a rocket propelled rising contact/wake pressure influence detonator activated charge so you will hear it and see it, even without a sound watch on the hydrophones, before it hits you.
 
The much smaller Chinese upfloat mines are simpler contact detonator actioned pop up mines that require at least 60-75 meters rise depth to accelerate fast enough to maneuver to meet a vessel that passes overhead. Those are silent in action in that you could miss the de-anchor action. Both types are designed to be submarine laid  at the deep channels of straits and large harbors. That is what I meant when I said that I didn't think these type Chens were a likely explanation here.
 
I hope I explained that clearly enough. 
 
H.
 
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Hamilcar    Cited article from previous.   3/30/2010 11:16:25 AM




Captors are not set/laid, nor are they designed to operate at the shallow depths, you claim. You don't know what you are talking about.



 



H.









No, that isn't always true. But then perhaps you are not familiar with what I'm talking about. But then in your case specifically I wouldn't expect you to be. Folks, please stop believing that all the types of weapons of the world are on google. Hamilcar, this is missiles for merchants again. You will have egg on your face again if you continue. You can count on that. You need to think about what I'm saying.




-DA


 

Read what I wrote.

And know this, you are NOT QUALIFIED to discuss naval, or air weapons, or even much as regards to rockets and radar-especially rockets.    
 
H.
 
 
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Reactive       3/30/2010 12:35:37 PM
Former North Korean soldiers who defected to South Korea on Monday claimed "underwater suicide squads" may have been responsible for the mysterious sinking of a South Korean naval vessel on Friday.

They are similar to the underwater demolition teams operated by the South Korean Navy, the defectors claimed. Recruited from the cream among North Korea's naval commandos, members of the teams are treated well but undergo brutal training.

According to one high-ranking North Korean defector, the North formed suicide attack squads in each branch of the military after the country's leader Kim Jong-il said during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 that no military in the world can defeat an army that can carry out suicide bombings.

The suicide attack squads are known as the "invincibles" in the Air Force, "bombs" in the Army and "human torpedoes" in the Navy. North Korea is said to place special emphasis on the naval squads. It operates a brigade of suicide attack squads in its East Sea and West Sea fleets and they are considered key to overcoming North Korea's inferior conventional military power.

One former North Korean sailor who defected to South Korea said the suicide squads have many semi-submersible vessels that can carry two bombers and either two torpedoes or two floating mines. In areas like the West Sea where the underwater current is fast, the suicide bombers train with mines rather than torpedoes.

One defector who served in North Korea's intelligence service, said, "Following the first naval battle in 1999, North Korea realized that it cannot defeat the South Korean Navy by conventional means and began studying unconventional methods." The best method is said to be the use of "acoustic mines" carried by small, semi-submersibles that travel at speeds of less than 2 km/h. The craft could be detected by South Korean sonar if they travel any faster. If the underwater squads returned after placing the mines on the hull of a ship, it would be very difficult to find evidence of the attack.
 
Hmm... Not entirely convinced but interesting idea..
 
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Reactive    More expertise, for those who've missed it..   3/30/2010 1:18:08 PM
"That type of destruction could not have been caused by an internal explosion," said Yoon Yeon, a former commander of Naval Operations. "It was probably a floating mine or a torpedo. Patrol boats store munitions with the fuses and explosive materials in separate areas of the ship so accidental explosions rarely occur, and those storage facilities have double or triple locks so that it is difficult for most people to access them."

Kim Tae-wook, a managing director at Hyundai Heavy Industries said, "It appears that the shock from an explosion from the outside triggered the munitions stored inside the vessel to go off, causing the ship to split in half."

Experts who point to an external shock say the most probable cause was a floating mine. The Cheonan was built according to U.S. specifications and is said to be able to remain buoyant even if 15 to 17 percent of the ship's hull is damaged. They also say that it is difficult for a single torpedo to split a vessel of that size in half and cause it to sink.


An explosive expert said, "Ships are stronger than we can imagine, so it is almost impossible for them to break in two due to an internal explosion." He notes the fact that some survivors said they did not smell any explosives, which means the ship could have been destroyed in a non-contact explosion underwater.

&e670; Internal Explosion

"If a single torpedo or a floating mine caused a naval patrol vessel to split in half and sink, we will have to rewrite our military doctrine,"1 said Baek Seung-joo of the Korea Institute for Defense Analyses. Instead, he believes an accident within the vessel is to blame.
 
It is unlikely that a single torpedo or a floating mine will accurately hit the munitions or fuel storage areas of a ship. A staffer at a security-related research center said, "With the exception of the naval clashes with North Korea in the West Sea, most South Korean naval accidents were due to internal explosions. One military expert, who spoke on condition of anonymity, cautiously raised the possibility of an "internal act of terror."

&e670; Cautious Approach

Former Navy Chief of Staff Adm. Song Young-moo, said, "Some people are pointing the finger at North Korea, but anyone with knowledge about the waters where the accident occurred would not draw that conclusion so easily." Experts say those waters are only 25 m deep and characterized by rapid currents, making it very difficult for North Korean submarines or semi-submersible vessels to operate.
 
I do hope these people are not the ones who are being relied upon to figure out what happened, there's several completely contradictory statements here and i've highlighted a few phrases that are either of interest, plain wrong, or contradictory.  ..All points to something detonating under the ship, no fires, no plumes of smoke. The depth (depending on the source) also varies between 20 and 45m, i'm inclined to believe the latter, personally, given that the only "expert" who seems to have half a clue is one who was actually in a position where he would have to.
 
 
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Hamilcar       3/30/2010 1:22:07 PM

Former North Korean soldiers who defected to South Korea on Monday claimed "underwater suicide squads" may have been responsible for the mysterious sinking of a South Korean naval vessel on Friday.



They are similar to the underwater demolition teams operated by the South Korean Navy, the defectors claimed. Recruited from the cream among North Korea's naval commandos, members of the teams are treated well but undergo brutal training.



According to one high-ranking North Korean defector, the North formed suicide attack squads in each branch of the military after the country's leader Kim Jong-il said during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 that no military in the world can defeat an army that can carry out suicide bombings.



The suicide attack squads are known as the "invincibles" in the Air Force, "bombs" in the Army and "human torpedoes" in the Navy. North Korea is said to place special emphasis on the naval squads. It operates a brigade of suicide attack squads in its East Sea and West Sea fleets and they are considered key to overcoming North Korea's inferior conventional military power.



One former North Korean sailor who defected to South Korea said the suicide squads have many semi-submersible vessels that can carry two bombers and either two torpedoes or two floating mines. In areas like the West Sea where the underwater current is fast, the suicide bombers train with mines rather than torpedoes.



One defector who served in North Korea's intelligence service, said, "Following the first naval battle in 1999, North Korea realized that it cannot defeat the South Korean Navy by conventional means and began studying unconventional methods." The best method is said to be the use of "acoustic mines" carried by small, semi-submersibles that travel at speeds of less than 2 km/h. The craft could be detected by South Korean sonar if they travel any faster. If the underwater squads returned after placing the mines on the hull of a ship, it would be very difficult to find evidence of the attack.

 

Hmm... Not entirely convinced but interesting idea..

A RoK diver just died in the salvage operation. No details, but its implied that the vicious underwater tidal current in that bay slammed him into something and he drowned before his buddy diver could rescue him and get him to the surface. That place is dangerous to dive.
 
Now I'm supposed to believe that DPRK divers could use a chariot type electric drive submersible and meet a maneuvering ship target to either place a Munroe effect bomb on the hull or put a torpedo into or under her?
 
Seems very implausible. I'll stick with "I don't know until we see the hull."
 
One more thing....I've read contradictory reports on the gunfire episode. Are we certain that the gunfire episode was fifteen minutes in duration, or was it within fifteen minutes of the reported sinking that a ROKN ship opened fire on a target?    
 
H.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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YelliChink       3/30/2010 1:25:56 PM

Former North Korean soldiers who defected to South Korea on Monday claimed "underwater suicide squads" may have been responsible for the mysterious sinking of a South Korean naval vessel on Friday.

 

If so, then Kim the Fat and Ugly is indeed proven to be completely insane. He'd better die soon so that we can hope saner people can be in charge of DPRK.
A suicide attack fits the scenario very well, except that the time is in spring and the water is very cold. If they somehow can overcome this difficulty, either with heating suits or enclosed cabin, then we'd better put this into consideration. Suicide torpedo will leave much larger debris and remnant and is likely to be found.
 
After all, this is not even a new idea. IJN did managed to sink two US ships with Kaiten.
 
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