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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
 
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Belisarius1234    I don't HAVE to.   2/26/2013 10:10:01 PM
You would be wrong about the diagram as well, so we can add not able to read to your list of defects?
 
So noted, Stuart.
 
B.
 
 
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Belisarius1234    It was a US govt. schematic...    2/26/2013 10:11:58 PM
by the way.
 
ROTFLMAO.
 
B.
 
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oldbutnotwise       2/27/2013 3:24:54 AM
I just want to point out one last thing;
If you go to those pages, there are dozens of photos of the B-17/24 and P-51 that flew into that air port and were also taken of that plane from many angles. Look at the one of the B-17 sitting with it's bomb bay doors open and the crouds of spectators both beside and inside the bay. Note also the many other pictures take inside and through the hatch into the bomb bay from both ends. With the doors open, it is clear that the bay must be at least 8' wide and almost 10' long. Just from the pictures you post above that is!
and you crowed about me getting the bomb size wrong yet you post as evidence?
 
and you have yet to explain how you can get 34 500lbs in there
 
an I see you have provided evidence that a 4000lbs would fit oh wait sorry I was wrong again you didnt did you
 
I love the way you take a loading schematic which shows multiple loads for each shackle and try to use this as evidence of size when ALL it can show is that thier was never provisions for carrying the loads you claim.
 
yet an artists impression of the bay is gosple, as is you very dubious measuring maybe it time you admit you were wrong
 
 
 
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giblets       2/27/2013 9:45:14 AM


ust to point out just a few defects of the above drawings, like where they do not match each other, have different scale thicknesses of the rack beams, etc...
But wait, note the rough size of the two thousand pound bombs in the bottom right drawing? Note also that the catwalk is shown at the very bottom of inside racks, instead of several feet above the very bottom of the bay as in both the many fotos and other diragrams. But if this drawing is to be taken as any sort of gage to fit which bombs, then the 4000 pound bomb would certainly fit above the possition of that shown for the 2000 pound bombs!

Finally, I point out that the diagram is even labled "Bomb Relesase Squence Diagram"

 
Do I really have to point to a grown man the difference between a scale drawing and a schematic diagram? This diagram is intended to display the weights of bombs allowed on each shackle, it is NOT a scale drawing
 
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45-Shooter       2/27/2013 6:33:12 PM

I just want to point out one last thing;
If you go to those pages, there are dozens of photos of the B-17/24 and P-51 that flew into that air port and were also taken of that plane from many angles. Look at the one of the B-17 sitting with it's bomb bay doors open and the crouds of spectators both beside and inside the bay. Note also the many other pictures taken inside and through the hatch into the bomb bay from both ends. With the doors open, it is clear that the bay must be at least 8' wide and almost 10' long. Just from the pictures you post above that is!
and you crowed about me getting the bomb size wrong yet you post as evidence?
Sachasm? Mine not your's.
and you have yet to explain how you can get 34 500lbs in there
Sachasm? Mine not your's.
an I see you have provided evidence that a 4000lbs would fit
If the bomb is only 34" in diameter, how much excess room is there in a bomb bay 8' wide?
 



 
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oldbutnotwise       2/28/2013 2:41:54 AM
I just want to point out one last thing;
If you go to those pages, there are dozens of photos of the B-17/24 and P-51 that flew into that air port and were also taken of that plane from many angles. Look at the one of the B-17 sitting with it's bomb bay doors open and the crouds of spectators both beside and inside the bay. Note also the many other pictures taken inside and through the hatch into the bomb bay from both ends. With the doors open, it is clear that the bay must be at least 8' wide and almost 10' long. Just from the pictures you post above that is!
and you crowed about me getting the bomb size wrong yet you post as evidence?
  Sachasm? Mine not your's.
so no answer?
 
and you have yet to explain how you can get 34 500lbs in there
Sachasm? Mine not your's.
 
your claim orginially was that you had evience of a B17 dropping 34 440lbs bombs (we since found that they didnt do 440lbs and you moved to 500lbs)  so are you still claiming that the B17 could carry 36 500lbs bomber or not?
 
an I see you have provided evidence that a 4000lbs would fit
If the bomb is only 34" in diameter, how much excess room is there in a bomb bay 8' wide?
 
Problem is its NOT 8' wide its 2x4' and as the the 4000lbs is actually 4' wide across the fins you would need a bay with nothing between the skins but bomb bay and you clearly dont have that
 
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Belisarius1234    ROTFLMAO.   2/28/2013 9:41:32 AM
In spades.
 
100 pages  in three threads to get to this simple point? 
 
B.
 
 
 
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giblets       2/28/2013 10:04:15 AM
I'd also love to see an image of a B17 without the central walkway etc in...... am sure shooter will get one of those up quickly.........
TROLL 
 
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45-Shooter       3/4/2013 7:11:03 PM
 
Do I really have to point to a grown man the difference between a scale drawing and a schematic diagram? This diagram is intended to display the weights of bombs allowed on each shackle, it is NOT a scale drawing
But I did post scale drawings and links to actual blue prints! Why have none of you even commented on those?

 
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45-Shooter       3/4/2013 7:23:11 PM

and you have yet to explain how you can get 34 500lbs in there
No, I posted a statement that I had seen a picture labeled B-17s drop 440 pound cluster fire bombs and that I had counted the sting of bombs beneath each of the three planes. They had 34 bombs in each string! The bomb was easy to ID because of it's flat nosed with fuse shape.
 
an I see you have provided evidence that a 4000lbs would fit
If the bomb is only 34" in diameter, how much excess room is there in a bomb bay 8' wide?

Problem is its NOT 8' wide its 2x4' and as the the 4000lbs is actually 4' wide across the fins you would need a bay with nothing between the skins but bomb bay and you clearly dont ha ve that
W rong on both counts. As the bomb is carried in the bay, the fins are arrainged as a "X" not a cross! As such the box they fit int o is only 34.08" on a side, either horizonta lly, or vertically! While the diagonal dimention is 48", that is not realivant! See these three scale drawings; F" target="_blank">>" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=b-17+flying+fortress+images&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hzo1Ue7JOZKPyAGR4YGgBg&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=722#imgrc=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM%3A%3BTa6dhK0OATB9FM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252FF" target="_blank">> href="https://www.google.com/search?q=b-17+flying+fortress+images&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hzo1Ue7JOZKPyAGR4YGgBg&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=722#imgrc=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM%3A%3BTa6dhK0OATB9FM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252FF" target="_blank">>" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=b-17+flying+fortress+images&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hzo1Ue7JOZKPyAGR4YGgBg&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=722#imgrc=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM%3A%3BTa6dhK0OATB9FM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252FF" target="_blank">> href="F" target="_blank">>" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=b-17+flying+fortress+images&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hzo1Ue7JOZKPyAGR4YGgBg&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=722#imgrc=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM%3A%3BTa6dhK0OATB9FM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252FF" target="_blank">> href="https://www.google.com/search?q=b-17+flying+fortress+images&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hzo1Ue7JOZKPyAGR4YGgBg&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=722#imgrc=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM%3A%3BTa6dhK0OATB9FM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252FF" target="_blank">>" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?q=b-17+flying+fortress+images&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Hzo1Ue7JOZKPyAGR4YGgBg&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=722#imgrc=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM%3A%3BTa6dhK0OATB9FM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252FF" target="_blank">>;


Now you make the measurements and tell us all what they are!

>>" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Ta6dhK0OATB9FM&tbnid=1KrDYtsBeP-1NM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2F>>>" data-ved="0CAUQjRw">http://www.papermania.ru/_nw/8/24113380.gif" width="432" height="477" alt="" />
 
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