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Subject: Modify the B-17 into night bomber/low altatude streak bomber?
45-Shooter    2/14/2013 3:55:59 PM
Given the multiple lines of debate; B-17 Vs Lancaster Vs Mossy, I post the following question; To convert the B-17 from a day bomber into a night/streak bomber, remove the top, bottom and chin turrets, remove the waist and cheek guns and gunners, relocate the flight deck to just behind the bombadier's space so that there is onlythree or four crew! Install large spinners on the props and install a single 20 mm auto-cannon on a flexible "X" bow mount in the plexi nose. Reduction in frontal area, weight and increases in streamlinning make flight both much faster and much more efficient! Since there is room for four 4,000 pound MC bombs in the bomb bay, the shakles should be modified to hold those four heavy bombs if the larger shakle does not fit now. Otherwise eight 2,000 pound bombs should be the standard load. Given the 210-220 knot cruising speed of the Mossy required to make the placard range, the new faster B-17N/S should offer more of everything that makes the Mossy so neat?
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45-Shooter    missunderstood you the first time.   3/12/2013 4:05:19 PM
Unless you read German?
That too would be an error.
And incidentally, it is NOT easy to come by.
I would be interested to have you post page number and quote the sentence.

My copy is a old one, in English, will quote page etc as soon as I find it.

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Maratabc       3/12/2013 4:13:29 PM
You did not misunderstand me.
The question stands. Answer it please.
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45-Shooter    understood you the first time.   3/12/2013 4:19:04 PM

My big claim came from two sources, Willey Messerschmitt's book on the planes he built and my former landlord who flew a Me-109K with a 30 MM Mk-103 shooting through the prop hub and two Mg-151/15s under the cowling! Now I would think that willy knew what the planes he built could carry and my old NAZI pilot had a clue and pictures too, so regardless of what everyone else on the planet thinks, I still know that it was possible to put two 151s under the cowl and a Mk-103 through the prop hub!   
yeah right 2x 20mm under the cowl you just make this up don't you
  No, lets be correct here, it was two MG-151/15s, not 2X20 as you state above.
my mistake but as the mg 151/15 and mg 151/20 were the pretty much the same gun its a minor error
and I can only find its use as a Motor cannon before being replaced by the 20mm
my guess it is you mistaking the MG 151 for the MG 131 rather than him being wrong
That is all understandable, but I am absolutely certain about this. As it was explained to me in person in the summer of 1972, they used the two MG-151/15s under the cowl in order to match the trajectory of the Mk-103M that fired through the prop hub. The ammunition at least as published in that third book, "Weapons and ammunition of the Luftwaffe in WW-II" in both calibers was 960 M/S. The sight reticle was zero'd at 1,000 M. He claimed that it was devistating and that he shot down a dozen planes, including 7-8 heavy bombers!
As an aside to this, why not look at the pictures of the late model Me-109G Museum of the USAF in Daton, Ohio. The cowl is open, at least it was three weeks ago, and anyone can see that there is 7-8 inches of verticle space between the engine bearer and the cowl. That space goes all the way through the plane from side to side over 30" wide. While the cowl does taper, there is more than enough room near the nose for the gun's barrel which is only 24 MM in diameter. I am serrious. Please take a look.

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oldbutnotwise       3/12/2013 4:26:13 PM
oh and we are supposed to believe you? someone who readily admits his poor memory and has show a complete inability to correctly read sources yet you expect us to accept your story, sorry but that credibility left you many moons ago
and we also know how accurate your assessment of space is, I seem to remember you claiming something similar for a hs404 in a spit that was proved to either poke though the prop disc or the cockpit 
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45-Shooter    Go to the Me-109K page 109!   3/12/2013 4:31:26 PM

>>.="" com="">">" target="_blank">
Whatever the confusion about the MG 131 or MG 151, the question was there a 20 mm cannon cowl mounted in the BF 109 F or G?
It was not. Not enough room was there for the cannons and ammunition trays.
Wings in gondolas or in the motor were the positions. If the disputer had read the first citation, he would have known this, despite what some old Nazi, or some supposed book which I know does not contain that information says.    

Please see this web site that you posted, page 109 near the bottom for the Me-109Z with four 30 mm Mk-108s, two of which are mounter on the engine under the cowl in place of the 13 mm Machine guns! Then there are two more 30 mm Mk-108s in the wings/gondolas? (This part is not clear?) But last there is the pod mount version of the Mk-103 attatched to the CL bomb rack hard point! That is FIVE 30 MM cannons on the same plane, one built!
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 4:33:24 PM
As I expected.
If you can even read and understand the information there, you will comprehend that your 'old Nazi' did not tell you that, you did not read it, and you cannot make that claim. Pay particular attention to the ballistics charts.  
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Maratabc       3/12/2013 4:50:28 PM

Type BF 109Z

Armament            position                          ammo   time                    additional                   Position    
2x30 mm MK 108 engines                           65 rpg 6 sec                   gunpod                       center wing  
2x30 mm MK 108 wings                              35 rpg 4 sec                    SC 500                        center wing
1x30 mm MK 108 center wing, gunpod    35 rpg 5 sec                    SC 500 + 2xSC250     center wing and belly 
I see that you cannot read a chart or you cannot tell the truth.
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45-Shooter    Go to the Me-109K page 109!   3/12/2013 4:53:19 PM

You are either mistaken, don't know German at all, or are fabricating? Which is it?
That entire post, except for the highlighted parts in yellow that I added, was a paist and cut of the web site you provided the link to!
If you read the ones I back linked to, all the way to the end, for the Me-109Z, one made, as in the last post of mine where I also posted your link back at you, you can see that they all agree with me. If the Me-109Z can replace two 13 MM Machine guns with two 30MM Mk-108 cannons, why do you doubt that they could swap in two much smaller, but longer guns?
Also, the second link you gave has a picture(s) of the 109 with the two 13s and the MK-151/15-20 in the same picture! If you take a close at that picture, you can clearly see the realitive sizes of the two types of guns and that there is more than enough room under the cowl to put two of the larger guns if required! True the barrels must have longer blast tubes like the guns on the Do-335 pictures that are so common! but that is certainly not that hard!
This entire argument all goes away if you have ever seen one close up with the engine cowls open! I am not kidding, I could put my entire base ball cap under the cowl with the band in the verticle plane, perpendicular to the line of the gun barrel, where the breach end of the cannon would go WITH OUT TOUCHING any part of the plane! My entire hat! That is over 6" in the verticle dimention and over a foot long, well away from the plane's CL! Have you ever seen how small a Mk-151 is in real life? It is about the same size as a Browning .50 caliber M-2. Note that we put two of those in the nose of the first 2-300 Mustangs we built. This is not rocket science. There is so much more room that required, I can not bielieve they took so long to do it, at lest given their problems knocking bombers down!
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45-Shooter    Go to the Me-109K page 109!   3/12/2013 4:56:17 PM

he is applying misdirection, when challenged about the 151/15 in the cowl he starts on the 30mm a gun and fitment that no one has challenged, its a common technique of his,


it seems he is incapable of admitting his error even when clearly presented with the facts


and as usual I doubt he has read any of the sources he is quoting

See the link in the prior post where the Nazis built one Me-109Z with five 30 mm Cannons! Two under the cowl replaceing the 13 mm guns, two in the wings and one in a gondola/pod under the CL wing!
If there is enough room under the cowl for them to replace the 13 mms with two 30s, why on earth would you not think they could mount two Mg-151/15s?
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45-Shooter       3/12/2013 4:58:13 PM

You did not misunderstand me.
The question stands. Answer it please.
What question? Not joking, I do not have a clue what you are going on about. If you will re-post the original question, I'll answer it in the next post!

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