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Subject: Sarkozy's economic reforms-impact on the foreigners
Herc the Merc    5/8/2007 4:34:36 PM
Its obvious tax cuts, pension plan reductions etc will come in. Does anyone know if foreign companies can now come to France and outsource your job?? If so I need to start an office there. Our company executes software projects in India. Any other labor reforms?? that will make it easiers for overseas companies to come in and do projects -say SAP implementations?? So hopefully Sarkozy's win is more money for me and his corporate buddies. I did 4 years of French in school.
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french stratege       5/8/2007 7:06:20 PM
Diificult to understand you Herc.
Whatever, French companies did not wait for you to do job outsourcing in India.
Now, France is a free market and there is already numerous giant software companies.Like Cap Gemini which bought Ersnt and Young Consulting or Atos.And SAP implementations is already a mature market even there is still some business.
France is a difficult market and a very competitive one.Any foreign company can come and do business (except in defense of course).
French manpower is very competitive (we have the best productivity in the world) and what we need to boost our economy is only more flexibility to manage manpower, more annual workhours, more risk capital and R&D investment.
Then we would surely outperform British and german in growth as our companies are still there.
Now internal reforms on salary cost are more societal and to raise french active population moral to invest more.But it would not give lower salary cost for employers except for low value jobs (but more purchasing power for active population and less for retirees and civil servants).
It is to stop this job malthusianism and reward more investors and risk taking people.
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Herc the Merc    FS   5/8/2007 7:17:29 PM
Cap Gemini etc are project companies and have different models. Direct outsourcing is a little different. Lets say Mr. Bordeaux is writing software with 50 engineers on staff. To outsource he will send 10 senior engineeers to India to train new engineers and the key 10 engineers will return to France as project managers. Then Mr. Bordeaux will fire the other 40 French software engineers replaced by Indian staff  or given option to move to India. This is pure outsourcing. In US its ez, in UK some unions scream loud. In Australia they have some problems too. Cap Gemini just does projects--different business model.
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french stratege       5/8/2007 8:32:13 PM
We already do that.
Cap gemini is maybe a project company but is also doing that.But some other companies are even more involved in such outsourcing.
On technical side outsourcing is more difficult as it goes above only writing software.
I have seen such a project of product design outsourcing in India where software was done there and also a part of hardware.
Indian were working correctly on software but failed on hardware platform and so the whole project was delayed and french enginners loose time going all the time to india to correct bad work.
So it is more suitable for low tech software like SAP implementations.
Contrary to the excessive view of US/UK people, it is possible to fire people in France.
For people with degrees it is no problem.For workers in big company it is more difficult when you have unions and you want to fire a good number but still feasible quite easily.
The only difference with US/UK is that you have to give a 3 month warning or to pay 3 month of salary if you don't want employee stay at job.Then you have to add a week of salary per year of work in the company (example: a guy who stayed 12 years in a company will have 3 month salary as a departure indemnity).
You have also to give a justification.The easiest is to say the guy do not fit anymore the job or did a fault and that's all.
Example of a fault: the guy arrive 3 time in the year 5 minutes  late at work.Quite easy to find or provoke a fault.
The final difference is that you need few hours to think for a strategy to fire a guy and you have to plan that in your budget as all companies do.
AN other excessive view is that people work only 35 hours which is false.35 hours is normal week for workers(and not in all sectors: some are still at 39 hours week) and not "cadres" (people with university degree which are paid for a task and not a time, so they work sometime 60 hours a week depending positions).But for workers, they often do supplementary hours and they have to accept flexibility with some 48 hours week when company need it without overpay for additional hours when unions have accepted 35 hour week.
Our real problem is that we lack of personnel in some
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FJV    Firing   5/10/2007 1:01:45 PM
There are other ways to get rid of personnel than firing.

In the Netherlands there are "management" training programs on how to "bully" personell into leaving a company when firing them is too expensive. These are the usual tricks like giving only crap assignments, forcing them to work with persons they don't get along with, nitpicking on insignificant mistakes, etc. Of course they donot call it bullying, but give it some innocent sounding term.

Being fired may not be that bad compared to that. At least your blood pressure will be intact and you can find another job.

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