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Subject: 120mm AMS in Australian service
BLUIE006    6/2/2008 4:45:13 AM
The 120 AMS (120mm Armored Mortar System) is a single barrel, smoothbore 120mm mortar turret suitable for integration on medium weight armored vehicles such as M113 and Piranha III. It is operated completely under armor featuring reduced recoil and semi-automatic loading system which makes possible integration on most types of wheeled and tracked vehicles. The 120 Armored Mortar System mortar-turret fires existing and planned 120mm mortar ammunition and can be employed for direct fire engagements as well as indirect fire engagements. A 7.62mm machine gun and smoke grenade launchers provide additional self-defense capability. h*tp:// The 120 AMS has been integrated on M113A4 and Piranha III 8x8 chassis and is currently in service with the armies of Saudi Arabia and Australia. Australia / 20 Saudi Arabia / 73 I had no idea ADF used 120 mortar?? Is this part of MINCS(L) AMP 48.36 – Army Mortar System Project The DMO site says its unapproved
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Herald12345    Are you using Internet Explorer   6/19/2008 8:46:28 PM

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Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhh!!!!!!  Herald help again please.  What part of the magic incantantion am I fecking up?  I go to youtube, copy the HTML code for embedding the vid, open my post comment window, select html at teh bottom, paste code, then submit.  Whisky Tango Foxtrot...Over?
Firefox works in the HTML window by cut paste off of {control "v").

Or type the embed using IE browser in the HTML window which is the hard way to do it.  

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ArtyEngineer    Herald   6/19/2008 9:02:32 PM
Yep, using IE.  Crazy thing is that over on the UK board I banged in two vids no problem doing exactly what I outlined below!!!!!
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Arty Farty       6/19/2008 11:56:38 PM
USMC M777 "speed shift" - much better view of rotating the gun
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Herald12345       6/20/2008 2:37:22 AM
Video of speed shift.

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USMC M777 "speed shift" - much better view of rotating the gun


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neutralizer       6/20/2008 7:01:59 AM
L118 is well balanced and easy to traverse on the platform.  It may be that use of L119 with its shorter barrel has coloured perceptions, even the heavier muzzle brake doesn't fully compensate for a shorter barrel. 
UK finished converting all their Light Guns to digital, etc, sights in 2002 (this was the first such system on towed guns), including those in the TA and University OTCs (only a handful used to teach the basics to recruits retain optical sights (4 guns)). In essence this seems to have made them the first artillery to abandon optical sights.  The digital laying system has recently been upgraded to integrate with the MVR (on every gun), store MVs and give direct fire thru the telescope to 6km.
If you were always towing with barrel reversed then your guns were out of date.  That's no longer needed, the A frame has been strengthened (long overdue in my view).
My understanding of M777 is if you want to traverse beyond top traverse it involves quite a lot of work compared to any split trail gun.  I'd observe that one of the fortunate features of CORAL was that the M2A2 were pointing in the required direction not centre of arc, if they been in the latter the outcome could have been seriously nasty.  That said the one disadvantage of L118 is that if you use the platform then you need a fairly large diameter gun pit.  However, UK units in Afg seem to have pretty well stopped using the platform as was the case in Iraq where the actually fired from hardtop roads.  Something that hitherto I'd only associated with the better SPs. 
Just going back to why UK abandoned their M777/Caesar acquisition.  I too have worked for more than one govt, and while cost is often an issue process is critical.  What's more both options probably had lower operating costs than AS90 and the quantities involved were actually peanut money.  The justification for M777/Caesar always seemed a bit
flaky to me, numbers seemed about 3 btys inviting the question why bother.  It's useful to note that M777/Caesar were in the Assessment Phase, the next step in the process is Initial Gate then Development, etc.  There's been no report that it actually got to Initial Gate.  This seems to mean that the Assessment concluded that basically they had
nothing useful to offer or capabilities they provided could be obtained by other more cost effective means or the capabilities weren't required.   Still, no doubt the assessment teams had lots of fun.

I actually think that M777 has potential, but it needs considerable rework and would increase in weight, although this doesn't matter in the real world.  It's attraction is that its compact.  Add a flick rammer and sliding block breech (for guaranteed burst fire), give a power option (for laying), which also helps the power supply challenge of the
electronics, enable it to traverse rapidly through 6400 on a sole plate (hydraulically assisted and could allow you to reduce top traverse) and you're starting to get something that might be worth having.  The extra weight would need better wheels unless you think portee is the way to go.
Finally, 105mm Fd Mk 2 ammo, the reliable story seems to be that when USSR invaded Afg there was realisation in Canberra that Aust ammo stocks were unacceptably low, but L118 was too late to be added to the list of restoration stock building and the project was directed to insert it in parallel with gun production.  However, by 1983 the ammo pressure was off and the Fd Mk 2 ammo local prodcution was slipped a year.  In 1986 it would have cost $860,000 to start producing HE, smk and WP (which UK has never produced for themselves).  Several events in the project team coupled with tightening of defence expenditure because of no foreseen deployments, move of ammo manufacturing to Albury and US introduction of assisted 105mm put production into the infinite future.  (All rumours of royalty issues, etc are just that.) 

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doggtag    ahh, but the problem is...   6/20/2008 10:26:05 AM app 1:55-2:03,

I like the "cost no more than $39,000" part.


Definitely bargain-basement precision if they can keep it on that mark.

(Will there be any discount for buying in bulk?)

Well done DT, you picked up on the main reason I posted (ahem.....attempted to post) that video.  Its pretty current and still states the objective price to be well below the 100 - 150 K value that gets thrown around alot.

How well do you know the US Gov't's FEDeral LOGistics system, ArtyEngineer?
Because, with its current M982 service designation,
Federal Logistics data suggests a per unit price well in excess of $39K, unfortunately (more than 3X that, sadly).
It actually is within the price range you mention getting thrown around alot,
which is certainly going to keep more US allies from mass ordering the round,
...which is perfect timing for any European developments to sneak in there and stake a claim in the market...unless the current contractor-listed price is something they're keeping flexible, just to drop thru the floor if a competitor or two merges at a price between $50-100K...?
It might all depend on just how accurate those PGK-type nose-mounted kits can be made: how accurate and how cheaply, and providing they'll fit any standard nose well threads for the shells of choice for a given customer.
(if it does work well in 155mm, certainly expect to see it in many lesser calibers possibly down to as "small" as 105 in the not-to-distand future.)
That could almost make the Excalibur a big spender's toy only, if well less than $39K can get you near-enough accuracy for just about any shell the PGK fuzes fit into.
155/52-fired PGK-equipped ERFB-BB and VLAP-type rounds could put Excalibur's sticker price (and range) to shame for a lot of applications.
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ArtyEngineer    DT   6/20/2008 10:42:02 AM
Know FEDLOG very well.  Sometime its the bane of my existence!!!!!  The thing about the Excalibur program is that its still a developmental program as the various "Blocks" are developed.  It was pushed into service under the rapid fielding initiative and as such "Something" had to go into the system agains it NSN.  So I suspect the listed values is a true value for what teh program has been paying per round during the devvelopmental test phase.  It will take a while for the true procurement cost to a unit ro make it into the system.  I must try to find a true cost at this moment in time. 
By the way DT you got an email I can hit you up on?  Preferably a non yahoo, hotmail etc. 
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ArtyEngineer    DT   6/20/2008 11:45:46 AM
I forgot to mention that 105mm and 155mm projectiles in US Service share comon fuzes.  Eg. The M762A1 and M762A1 (ET) which are Variable Time (VT) Fuzes, the M782 MOFA (Multi Option Fuze Artillery) which is the lates inductively set fuze which can do everything from delay, pd and airburst. The M739A1 which is your simple point detonating (PD) fuze etc.. There more, but you get my point im sure.  The PGK will be compatible with 105mm projectiles......eventually.
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Volkodav    Thanks Wikipedia and Defence Update   6/20/2008 11:12:43 PM
Dragon Fire II mortar system" width=300 border=0>
Test firing at the Naval Surface Warfare Center.
Type Heavy Mortar
Place of origin United States
Caliber 120 mm
Rate of fire 10 rounds per minute (maximum)
4 rounds per minute (sustained)
Effective range 8,200 m
(13,000 m with rocket assisted projectile)

Nemo Mobile Mortar System

Patria" width=400 border=0>
NEMO, a single barrel self propelled smoothbore 120mm mortar system, developed by Patria is augmenting the twin-barrel AMOS system currently in service. NEMO uses an unmanned turret suitable for most current wheeled APCs as well as lightweight, high speed vessels. Weighing 1.5 ton, The system offers high accuracy and can be operated autonomously, without complex fire preparations. NEMO can fire a first round within 30 seconds from vehicle stop and could immediately exit from firing position after the last shot, minimizing the risk of enemy counter-fire. The mortar can be aimed for indirect or direct fire, and, by employing MRSI fire, can engage a target with six bombs simultaneously. Precision fire will also be realized in the future, with new precision guided mortar munitions (PGMM) Patria is developing for its 120mm mortars. the turret is designed with advanced signature management techniques and armor protection.
I read the comments about rate of fire, traverse speed and availability of precission guided ammunition with some interest as a modern 120mm Mortar would seem to have an advantage in all of those areas.  Imagine a modern Fire Base Coral being fought in Afghanistan with our guys operating Bushmaster or ASLAV mounted NEMO's perhaps in a mixed battery with a couple of light towed or heavy SPG 155's.
As I have suggested earlier a single type of 120mm Mortar could be adapted to a variety of platforms to tailor them to specific needs of each of our Brigades or maybe a Bushmaster varient could be developed and used as standard.
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BLUIE006       6/20/2008 11:51:53 PM
Patria Hägglunds SSG-120 AMOS
(Advanced Mortar System)
Patria Hägglunds SSG120 AMOS" border=0>

Type & Operation:
Mortar mounted in turret


Capacity & Feed:
26 rounds/min (of which the first 4 in less than 8 seconds)


Barrel & Riffling:
3000mm - smoothbore

4400kg (standard), 2500kg (AMOS NAD - empty)


Rate of fire:
It is able to operate autonomously with direct and indirect fire capability together with Multible Rounds Simultaneous Impact (MRSI).

Muzzle Velocity:

5-15km (mounted in vehcile - 10 km with standard 120mm ammunition. 15 km with long range ammunition. 5 km with STRIX), 9km (mounted in Strb-90HS)

360° (traverse), -3° (depression), +85° (elevation) - The AMOS Navy turret shell will be smaller than the army version. The armour steel will be replaced by aluminium, giving the turret an empty weight of 2500kg.

2 + 1 (gunner, loader + 1 driver)

AMOS, AMOS II, AMOS NAD (Naval Application Demonstrator)

Developer & Manufacturer:
Patria Hägglunds Oy (based in Tampere, Finland)

Finland & Sweden

Sweden (Grkpbv-90120 (CV-90120 AMOS), Stridsbåt-90HS AMOS (experimental), trail versions of the Pbv-401 equiped with AMOS have been cunducted, Patgb 203A and the under development Alvis Hägglunds SEP (Splitterskyddad Enhetsplattform) is also a probable future candidates for the system in the future.

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