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Subject: 120mm AMS in Australian service
BLUIE006    6/2/2008 4:45:13 AM
The 120 AMS (120mm Armored Mortar System) is a single barrel, smoothbore 120mm mortar turret suitable for integration on medium weight armored vehicles such as M113 and Piranha III. It is operated completely under armor featuring reduced recoil and semi-automatic loading system which makes possible integration on most types of wheeled and tracked vehicles. The 120 Armored Mortar System mortar-turret fires existing and planned 120mm mortar ammunition and can be employed for direct fire engagements as well as indirect fire engagements. A 7.62mm machine gun and smoke grenade launchers provide additional self-defense capability. h*tp://www.deagel.com/Weapon-Stations/120-AMS_a001428001.aspx The 120 AMS has been integrated on M113A4 and Piranha III 8x8 chassis and is currently in service with the armies of Saudi Arabia and Australia. Australia / 20 Saudi Arabia / 73 I had no idea ADF used 120 mortar?? Is this part of MINCS(L) AMP 48.36 – Army Mortar System Project The DMO site says its unapproved
 
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Aussiegunneragain       6/26/2008 9:59:37 AM

Which SP will they choose?       - Thats the only question

 

K9 or PZH


PZH for me. I'll never trust a howitzer named after the national dish of the country where it is built.....
 
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ArtyEngineer       6/26/2008 10:08:09 AM

Which SP will they choose?       - Thats the only question

 

K9 or PZH


My gut feeling is PZH, its too good a piece of gear to pass up on.  True its big, expensive, heavy, not the easiest to deploy.  But once its there it will kick some serious ass!!!!
 
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ArtyEngineer    AGA   6/26/2008 10:30:12 AM

I hadn't heard of PGK before, thanks. It looks like a great partner for Excalibur. The level of accuracy is such that you wouldn't even need to adjust before firing the entire battery, saving ammo and reducing the enemies chance of escape. Being able to use the full range of 155mm guns with RAP is also a huge boost. My BK once told me that they would previously only have been used if we had fired a regiment into a grid-square. Given that we generally operate our M-198's as a battery, its pretty clear that we can't use them to their full capability at the moment, but that looks to change with these fuses.

Glad to give a fellow Arty guy some info ;)  The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.  In this thread Nuetraliser raised valid concerns regarding the logistics burden of supporting a howitzer battery by air.  In his opinion that made the whole concept fo a lightweight airmobile 155mm howitzer a bit of a non started for anyone other than the US who have lift assets out teh ass to be able to supply it.
Think about what teh PGK will do, it will rewrite teh effects tables with regards to number of round required to have the desired effects on target. Hence reducing the ammo required to be supplied.  Combine that with the Modular Artillery Charge System which allows you to repackage unused increments and your logistics burden has just shrunk drastically. And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type.
 
Having said that the Canadians shot a RAP out to 30,060 meters in the stan and had steel on steel!!!!!  Total fluke obviously, but when your lucks in good things happen ;)
 
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doggtag    any naval interest in PGK?   6/26/2008 12:40:52 PM


 The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.   And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type....

 
ArtyEngineer,
has there been any interest from anyone pertaining to naval application for the PGK?
 
Again, taking their suggested data with a grain of salt (not that there are numerous other sites to draw from),
NavWeapons suggests that the various RN-type 4.5-inch guns can reach out ~22-27km, depending on Mod.
And the UDLP BAE Mk42 (still in service) and Mk 45 series 5-inch guns supposedly can muster ~23km, with a respectable ~38km for the 62-cal barrel Mod 4.
With PGK's enhanced precision vs unguided rounds, a lot of stationary (coastal, inland, and seaborne) targets will succumb faster to naval gunfire.
Certainly seems that it's a damn good niche market to try and corner: developing PGKs for naval ammunition.
Seeing as so many navies operate 4.5-5-inch guns, it seems like a no-brainer to develop naval PGKs.
The ships thus engaging land targets may still be within range of coastal defenses (even if 30km is BVR from near-shore systems),
but still, that extra precision alone could encourage so many prospective buyers, although it would entail new equipment in ships to allow for accomodating a PGK fuze magazine and creating a compatible fuze installer that can still select between it and Point Detonating or Variable Time/Proximity Fuze types (even if it had to be manually done, it would still prove itself worthwhile).
But it might be worth the expense, if it allows near-missile-like precision but at a cost much closer to artillery rounds.

 
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ArtyEngineer    DT   6/26/2008 12:50:43 PM
Im not aware of any thought being given to Naval applications for the PGK, however its a no brainer really.  As soon as the Army have paid the development costs and the kinks worked out im sure the tech will be leveraged into Naval Ammo. 
 
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Volkodav    From ADM   6/27/2008 6:52:56 AM

DONARhttp://www.australiandefence.com.au/adm/images/DONAR.jpg" name="myImage" />

    Under cover

    DONAR is an autonomous system aimed, loaded and fired with the crew under complete armour protection.

    Too late for Land 17?



    23 Jun 2008

    At Eurosatory, General Dynamics European Land Systems is displaying the recently completed Donar (or Thor) 155mm selfpropelled (SP) artillery system.

    Donar is an autonomous system that is aimed, loaded and fired with the crew under complete armour protection.

    It has already completed a series of firepower and mobility trials.

    This private venture between Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) of Germany and GDELS has been created to meet emerging requirements for a highly mobile and lighterweight 155mm/52 calibre SP artillery system with the same firepower as the current KMW PzH 2000, which weighs about 55 tonnes.

    Donar will be marketed on a worldwide basis as a potential replacement for the widely deployed US M109 155mm SP artillery system that was first developed some 50 years ago.

    The consortium has already started to brief other potential Donar customers, including the German Army, which has a possible requirement for up to 41 systems.

    For a high level of cross-country mobility, Donar has a new armoured chassis that uses automotive components of the latest General Dynamics Santa Barbara Sistemas (part of GDELS) ASCOD 2 infantry fighting vehicle chassis with a fully protected crew compartment at the front.

    Mounted on the rear of the chassis is a remotely controlled turret armed with the same 155mm/52 calibre ordnance as fitted to the current KMW PzH 2000.

    The turret is a further development of the KMW Artillery Gun Module that has already carried out successful firing trials installed on a tracked Multiple Launch Rocket System chassis.

     
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    Herald12345    PGKs..........   6/27/2008 7:10:30 AM





     The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.   And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type....



     


    ArtyEngineer,

    has there been any interest from anyone pertaining to naval application for the PGK?

     

    Again, taking their suggested data with a grain of salt (not that there are numerous other sites to draw from),

    NavWeapons suggests that the various RN-type 4.5-inch guns can reach out ~22-27km, depending on Mod.

    And the UDLP BAE Mk42 (still in service) and Mk 45 series 5-inch guns supposedly can muster ~23km, with a respectable ~38km for the 62-cal barrel Mod 4.

    With PGK's enhanced precision vs unguided rounds, a lot of stationary (coastal, inland, and seaborne) targets will succumb faster to naval gunfire.

    Certainly seems that it's a damn good niche market to try and corner: developing PGKs for naval ammunition.

    Seeing as so many navies operate 4.5-5-inch guns, it seems like a no-brainer to develop naval PGKs.

    The ships thus engaging land targets may still be within range of coastal defenses (even if 30km is BVR from near-shore systems),

    but still, that extra precision alone could encourage so many prospective buyers, although it would entail new equipment in ships to allow for accomodating a PGK fuze magazine and creating a compatible fuze installer that can still select between it and Point Detonating or Variable Time/Proximity Fuze types (even if it had to be manually done, it would still prove itself worthwhile).

    But it might be worth the expense, if it allows near-missile-like precision but at a cost much closer to artillery rounds.




    Has anyone given thought to the fact that a ballistic projectile needn't be an artillery shell to use such a precision guidance fuse kit?

    Those butterfly vaned nose guidance kits will work on free flight ROCKETS.............
     
    Herald
     

     
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    ArtyEngineer    Herald   6/27/2008 10:33:52 AM











     The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.   And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type....







     






    ArtyEngineer,



    has there been any interest from anyone pertaining to naval application for the PGK?



     



    Again, taking their suggested data with a grain of salt (not that there are numerous other sites to draw from),



    NavWeapons suggests that the various RN-type 4.5-inch guns can reach out ~22-27km, depending on Mod.



    And the UDLP BAE Mk42 (still in service) and Mk 45 series 5-inch guns supposedly can muster ~23km, with a respectable ~38km for the 62-cal barrel Mod 4.



    With PGK's enhanced precision vs unguided rounds, a lot of stationary (coastal, inland, and seaborne) targets will succumb faster to naval gunfire.



    Certainly seems that it's a damn good niche market to try and corner: developing PGKs for naval ammunition.



    Seeing as so many navies operate 4.5-5-inch guns, it seems like a no-brainer to develop naval PGKs.



    The ships thus engaging land targets may still be within range of coastal defenses (even if 30km is BVR from near-shore systems),



    but still, that extra precision alone could encourage so many prospective buyers, although it would entail new equipment in ships to allow for accomodating a PGK fuze magazine and creating a compatible fuze installer that can still select between it and Point Detonating or Variable Time/Proximity Fuze types (even if it had to be manually done, it would still prove itself worthwhile).



    But it might be worth the expense, if it allows near-missile-like precision but at a cost much closer to artillery rounds.











    Has anyone given thought to the fact that a ballistic projectile needn't be an artillery shell to use such a precision guidance fuse kit?




    Those butterfly vaned nose guidance kits will work on free flight ROCKETS.............

     

    Herald


     






    Are you thinking of an even cheaper alternative to GMLRS?  I see absolutely no reason why as you suggest such a guidance system would not work on such a free flight rocket system.
     
    As I understand it the principal of the PGK is very simple.  It stores the predicted ballistic trajectory, does an assement of where it is for any given T (time) compares to where it should be, extrapolate forward to do a should hit/will hit comparison and attempts to correct accordingly. 
     
    Here is a link to an excellent Article from Ft Sill regarding the PGK.  - Article from Ft Sill->
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    AE   6/27/2008 10:45:00 AM
    I'm hearing you on the importance of PGK fuses for accuracy and ammo conservation. It will be quite revolutionary. Realistically though I reckon Australia would be able to air supply an all 155mm operation without it. We are not only in the process of beefing up our rotary wing capabilities but all the potential combat zones within our region are well within the radius of the RAAF transport fleet, which gives us the ability to resupply by airdrop. Thats not to say that that the PGK's impact on ammo conservation isn't welcome though, as it improves our ability to shift other loads and gives us comfort of the transport fleet suffers losses or if part of it is tied up on other operations.
    The only minor problem that I have with 155mm rounds is that the bigger area of effect increases the danger close range when supporting light infantry compared to 105mm. I'd imagine that Excalibur's accuracy would compensate for this, but the first tranche of PGK fuses would require the same precations as ordinary rounds at shorter ranges. I was wondering if there are any solutions being developed to deal with this? I'd imagine that a "thin skinned" 155mm round that relied on blast effect rather than fragmentation might do the trick. Better still, what about an HE round which can be set to discard the outer shell (like an APDS round) at the flick of a catch for a danger close mission? I'd imagine it wouldn't be that difficult an engineering solution and would save having to load up two types of bombs.
     
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    ArtyEngineer    AGA   6/27/2008 11:07:56 AM
    You mean a projectile like this:  Aviation Week article on Composite Shell
     
    My understanding is that this is primarily being developed as a "Payload" carrier, however with a unitary HE filler it would be more suitable for your danger close type missions in support of troops in contact.
     
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