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Subject: Russia's turn to be bombed again
SGTObvious    12/5/2003 7:31:16 AM
A civilian commuter train was hit, at least 26 innocent people died, thanks to islamic terrorism. It's darkly ironic- the moajority of Russian posters here seem anti-American, but I cannot be anti-Russian. I wish the Russians the best, I wish they get those degenerate sub-humans, and I wish they realize we are on the same side in the same long war.
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Elbandeedo    RE:Russia's turn to be bombed again   12/5/2003 12:23:55 PM
Latest update says the butchers bill is up to 40 dead now. I hope they catch the accomplices and deal with them in the Old Russian way... slow and painful. E.
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Phoenix Rising    RE:Russia's turn to be bombed again   12/6/2003 3:55:25 AM
I feel the same was as Sarge. I find it hard to believe that so many Russians think so negatively about the USA when we're fighting largely the same enemies; kind of gives the lie to the logic of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." --Phoenix Rising
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American Kafir    RE:Russia's turn to be bombed again   12/6/2003 4:13:41 AM
This seems like a good place to start a thread / question on Russia vs. terrorism that I've been wanting to ask for a while. Using the Geneva Protocols mentioned on this site in defense of Israeli actions against the Palestinian terror groups, can the same be said of the Russian efforts against the Chechen terrorists? I certainly would like to know if Russia is getting a bum's rap for Grozny, and if so, apologize for it and encourage them to escalate.
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SGTObvious    Russia and Grozny   12/6/2003 5:45:16 PM
Whether the Russians used "inappropriate" levels of force in Grozny can really be judged only in relation to Russian battlefield standards. Russian war experience has been to employ as much force as possible against the enemy, and if there are civilian buildings, oh well, as the Geneva protocol specifically states, they are not immune from attack. Russia is also used to paying an enourmous price, far beyond what the US would contemplate. One helicopter loss in Chechnaya took the lives of 126 Russian soldiers. Russia has the experience of Stalingrad- an enourmous cost, and enourmous success. On the other hand, their attempts at "surgical" warfare have been dreadful failures- the first attack on Grozny essentailly set up good Russian soldiers as targets. So, the Russian way of war is to flatten grid squares- to ask them to be more precise is roughly akin to asking US or UK forces to use knives only, to prevent stray rounds from hitting civilians. That being said, the Russians, aside from the occassional bad apple in the bunch, target military targets. They are firing on the enemy, using the amount of firepower their doctrine and combat history tells them is correct for the situation. They do not choose targets to maximize civilian casualties, they choose targets to kill enemy and disregrd civilian casualties, a crucial distinction that Muslim Cognitive Dissonance cannot cope with. THe test is this: Given what we know of the Enemy, and what we know of the Russians, what tactics could the Russians adopt that would produce fewer civilian losses but the same level of military success? I believe the answer is "None".
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American Kafir    RE:Russia and Grozny   12/6/2003 6:01:52 PM
Maybe we could consider Russian tactics the ultimate in pre-emption. Dead Chechen civilians can't grow up to be Chechen terrorists. But surviving Chechen civilians are less likely to allow Chechen terrorists to live among them and make themselves a potential target. Russian pragmatism?
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roadcop    RE:Russia and Grozny   1/16/2004 10:12:23 PM
There are no full-scale army operations against terrorists in towns and villages now. In last 2-3 years army units used mainly in mountains and forest terrain against terrorists groups. In inhabited areas there are police oficcers from all regions of Russia - well-trained for police operations, better equipped than army conscripts. Also, all of them are husbands and fathers, so losses always have a heavier strike on public opinion in their home cities. But certainly 25-30 years old police oficcer with experience and training is more likely to survive combat engagement than 18-year old conscript (drafted 3 months ago straigth from school class). So, the so-called "zachistka" now is normal police operation. Surround the building where are suspects live, block entrances and arrest suspects. Thats all. During the fights in Grozny, "zachistka" was more simple - open door, throw frag grenade, come inside, eliminate hostile survivors. That was an usual army tactics for urban warfare all the time till WW2. Kill or be killed. Now, Chechenya returns back to peaceful life. This process will be very long, ofcourse. And many good police oficcers from Russian cities will be killed or wounded doing their job. But we are at war with terrorism, and so we are Allies with US(as in good ol' times).
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bombard    RE:Russia and Grozny   2/3/2004 5:28:32 PM
I dunno. But I do think that Grozny experience mase made the embankment think about their conscript force with less interest. Immediatly after that fiasco, the Spetznez and the interior ministry troops were sent in, these being the only professional/highly trained forces available. The Spetnez are the highest grade conscript, but are given more training and the best equipment. These are the troops that are making some progress. Recently, the military cheif of staff was heavily critised by the Ministry of Defence. Such crititisms give warning of change at the top. Whoever goes in will give some indication of the speed that the Russian Army will change. My bet is on an unknown general with spetznaz command experience.
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ace    RE:Russia's turn to be bombed again   2/5/2004 4:50:53 AM
"I find it hard to believe that so many Russians think so negatively about the USA " i wouldn't say so. I came to australia from russia when i was 5. most of my friends and family are russian, and all of them, including me love america. maybe it's because t
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wait.wat?    RE:Russia's turn to be bombed again   2/8/2004 3:40:30 PM
Some hate only because they feel resentment toward the US during the Cold War. But then, who wouldn't? Don't worry, though, the ones that hate you are the ones that get to vocalize the most. About the Chechens, I would have to say that there are many innocents that really want to be part of the Federation. But still, they get killed or beaten by Russian Neo-Nazis (it should be an oxymoron, but, sadly, it is true). This fuels sympathy towards the rebels. The assholes at Amnesty would have supported the Taliban if they had the chance, they're just rooting for whoever is the underdog. These "underdogs" being terrorists doesn't matter to them. It's just a race to see who would be more "humanitarian" than the other.
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