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Subject: One For Thomas and Addo
JIMF    12/10/2006 4:41:07 PM
All kidding aside is this guy on the level? While Sweden Slept By BRUCE BAWER December 8, 2006 The approach of the New Year and departure of the old inevitably brings a flurry of "year's best" lists. This even applies to nations, which some organizations make it their business annually to rank in order of wealth, quality of life, and what-have-you. Surprisingly often, the Nordic countries come out on top. This placement is usually a reflection less of objective reality, however, than of the list-makers' enthusiasm for the Nordic welfare-state model. The criteria, in other words, are formulated in such a way that the Nordic countries will inevitably end up on top. Hence Norway, for example, is repeatedly named by the United Nations as the world's richest country — forget that prices and taxes are so high that even business executives lunch on dry sandwiches brought from home in aluminum foil. Now it's Sweden's turn. The Economist Intelligence Unit, associated with the Economist magazine, has awarded the title of world's most democratic country to Sweden. For many observers, this is not only wrong — it's staggeringly, outrageously misinformed. Sweden is, after all, a country in which the people are fed by their political, press, and intellectual establishment an unvarying diet of propaganda promoting the socialist welfare state, demonizing Israel, and whitewashing Islam. As for America, the official view was neatly captured in a post-September 11 editorial in the nation's largest newspaper, Aftonbladet, which assured readers that the terrorists who attacked New York and Washington weren't Sweden's enemies but simply hated " U.S. imperialism," a reasonable position given that "the U.S. is the greatest mass murderer of our time." Such views, taught in Sweden's classrooms and enshrined in Sweden's state-approved schoolbooks, are reiterated daily by Sweden's mainstream press organizations, all of which are either government-owned or government-subsidized. Dissent is powerfully discouraged. In Sweden, whose murder rate is currently twice that of America and where Muslims now constitute over 10% of the population and are disproportionately unemployed and prone to violence, the Swedish press routinely depicts America as crime-ridden. Polls show that the majority of Swedes are deeply disturbed by their country's dramatic social changes and highly critical of the policies that brought them about. Yet the crime and violence generally go unreported, so only rarely does any of the criticism seep into the press. Though two-thirds of Swedes question whether Islam is compatible with Western society, this issue is simply not open for public discussion. To quote Jonathan Friedman, a New Yorker who teaches social anthropology at the University of Lund, "no debate about immigration policies is possible" because Sweden's "political class," which controls public debate, simply avoids the topic. Recently, the city of Stockholm carried out a survey of ninth-grade boys in the predominantly Muslim suburb of Rinkeby. The survey showed that in the last year, 17% of the boys had forced someone to have sex, 31% had hurt someone so badly that the victim required medical care, and 24% had committed burglary or broken into a car. Sensational statistics — but in all of Sweden, they appear to have been published only in a daily newssheet that is distributed free on the subways. Instead of reporting on such worrisome findings, politicians and the press alike focus on the evils of America and Israel. Last year, for instance, Sweden's state-owned TV network ran a series of "documentaries" about America that included Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine." Viewers were protected from the fact that it had been shown to contain lies and fabrications. The series also included a sympathetic account of Stalin's atomic spies Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, whom Swedish TV described as having been executed not for history's most colossal act of treason but "for their Communist sympathies," and something called "Why We Fight," which explained America's military actions as motivated by the avarice of military contractors. Swedish book publishing is similarly unbalanced. Recently Michael Moynihan, an American writer based in Stockholm, toted up the English-language political books that had been translated into Swedish since September 11. His long list included several works apiece by Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore, plus volumes by the communist historian Eric Hobsbawm, the anti-American journalist John Pilger, and the "Holocaust industry" critic Norman Finkelstein. On the entire list, only one author was not a leftist. When voices of dissent do break through in Sweden, they're often punished. During the runup to the Iraq war, the Swedish government censured the independent TV channel TV4 for running an "Oprah" episode that presented both pro- and anti-war arguments. TV4 was charged with violating press-balance guidelines when in
 
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mustavaris       12/10/2006 5:05:21 PM
Amen to that. Mr. Bawer is obviously a kind person.

Due to professional reasons I had the possibility to meet and spend a few days with some Swedish teachers (languages, history and social studies) and it did really give this feeling about their point of view. And their society is crumbling, hard to say whether its collapsing or just slowly rotting away.. only time will tell, but when the problem is cast on worlds face, I hope that we in other Nordic countries are ready and wiser.

Anyway, the Sweden democrats are a bunch of ultra nationalists, almost neo-nazis in my opinion and if they are their best choice... then that country is heading for a civil war (maybe Denmark could take the Skåne back then?)

 
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addo       12/11/2006 6:15:22 AM
What a load of bullcrap....
 
First.. there are 2 state owned televisionchannels out of 10 or 12 Swedish channels worth mentioning and even those two channels arent by any means controlled by the government.,.jees..
 
Second.. No the general Swede does not hate Israelis and American's. Most however feels distaste when Israeli snipers pluck out 9 year old's... But none condone suicide bombings and things like that..About USA. I read some report a year back that Sweden is the most 'Americanized' country in the world... Not that that is something to strive for, but most Swedes have a very positive attitude to USA.. even if it's gotten a bit dented with Bush in charge.
 
Third.. Sweden never said that the AL Qaida's not their enemy.. Sweden backed the US in Afghanistan politically. Iraq.. thats another story... 
 
""the U.S. is the greatest mass murderer of our time." Such views, taught in Sweden's classrooms and enshrined in Sweden's state-approved schoolbooks, are reiterated daily by Sweden's mainstream press organizations, all of which are either government-owned or government-subsidized. " ... LoL not when i went to school... and not now either..
 
Fourth.. No, muslims do not constitute 10% of the population.. Immigrants do.. not muslims.. Largest part of the minority groups in Sweden are Finns.. If i remember correctly there are about 2 -300 000 muslims in Sweden..
 
Sweden Democrats.. lol they started out as Neo-Nazis... of course we wont let any of those get a grip of power...Democratic or not...
 
 
BTW.. The Swedish government is for the coming 4 years right wings..No 'leftist' there..
 
Mr.Bawer lives in Norway and writes rubbish about Sweden... what a shocker!!!
 
For some reason Danes, Norwegians and Finns do have an inferiority complex towards Sweden commonly known as the 'Lillebrorskomplex'
 
I dont know if it is because Sweden is just bigger or if it lies in the history of Scandinavia.. Where Denmark lost 80% of its lands to Sweden, Finland being ruled by (or more accurate Finland was just 'the east part of Sweden' for some 800 years) And Norway being forced into a union with the Swedes..
 
They all hate us.. But we . most of us atleast.. love them...
 
Im not saying Sweden is the most perfect land of all.. or that it in all aspects is the most democratic and "Best to live in" of all countries.
 
But Sweden does not deserve the crappy rumour that it has here on Strategypage...In any way.. Regardless of what Thomas say.
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
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addo       12/11/2006 7:14:12 AM
What a load of bullcrap....
 
First.. there are 2 state owned televisionchannels out of 10 or 12 Swedish channels worth mentioning and even those two channels arent by any means controlled by the government.,.jees..
 
Second.. No the general Swede does not hate Israelis and American's. Most however feels distaste when Israeli snipers pluck out 9 year old's... But none condone suicide bombings and things like that..About USA. I read some report a year back that Sweden is the most 'Americanized' country in the world... Not that that is something to strive for, but most Swedes have a very positive attitude to USA.. even if it's gotten a bit dented with Bush in charge.
 
Third.. Sweden never said that the AL Qaida's not their enemy.. Sweden backed the US in Afghanistan politically. Iraq.. thats another story... 
 
""the U.S. is the greatest mass murderer of our time." Such views, taught in Sweden's classrooms and enshrined in Sweden's state-approved schoolbooks, are reiterated daily by Sweden's mainstream press organizations, all of which are either government-owned or government-subsidized. " ... LoL not when i went to school... and not now either..
 
Fourth.. No, muslims do not constitute 10% of the population.. Immigrants do.. not muslims.. Largest part of the minority groups in Sweden are Finns.. If i remember correctly there are about 2 -300 000 muslims in Sweden..
 
Sweden Democrats.. lol they started out as Neo-Nazis... of course we wont let any of those get a grip of power...Democratic or not...
 
 
BTW.. The Swedish government is for the coming 4 years right wings..No 'leftist' there..
 
Mr.Bawer lives in Norway and writes rubbish about Sweden... what a shocker!!!
 
For some reason Danes, Norwegians and Finns do have an inferiority complex towards Sweden commonly known as the 'Lillebrorskomplex'
 
I dont know if it is because Sweden is just bigger or if it lies in the history of Scandinavia.. Where Denmark lost 80% of its lands to Sweden, Finland being ruled by (or more accurate Finland was just 'the east part of Sweden' for some 800 years) And Norway being forced into a union with the Swedes..
 
They all hate us.. But we . most of us atleast.. love them...
 
Im not saying Sweden is the most perfect land of all.. or that it in all aspects is the most democratic and "Best to live in" of all countries.
 
But Sweden does not deserve the crappy rumour that it has here on Strategypage...In any way.. Regardless of what Thomas say.
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
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mustavaris       12/11/2006 7:42:44 AM
Well; the immigrants and their children made 20 % of the population in 2002 and the Sweden is losing some 35-40K people a year, mostly people who are native Swedes and well educated.. so the future is clear if the path is continued.
 
10% aint true but the stories from Malmö and Gothenburg (relatives..) are pretty much like the stuff I hear from Marseilles (ex-gf).. Sweden will have very difficult problems with their Muslim minority in the next 5..10 years and Malmö and Göteborg are places to remember.  
 
All of the Swedish teachers  I met some time ago were very pro-Palestinian and anti-US and the mainstream news are there to see.. just chekc them and you´ll see that CNN has no agenda at all.  The country is run by social democrats and no one has the guts and ability to change the direction. The present "right wing" government cannot do much to change that, they need many many years before they can dig themselves out of the crap they have buried themselves in.
 
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Thomas       12/11/2006 4:08:19 PM
I considered letting JIMF have the pulpit - he does an excellent job.
 
As to civil war - I don't think it will come to that. I think Sweden will fall apart like the DDR.
 
Skåne get back to Denmark: Yup that's my plan. As to me being a nut - please refer to the preceeding paragraph.
 
As to Swedes loving other Scandinavians... Let me put it this way: I understand the missionary being inspected by cannibals.
 
As to the "kid brother complex" - I guess it is traumatic - to visit relatives ---- in jail.
 
As to freedom of expression: I once - after work (in Scania) - posted on a Swedish website, expressing that Sweden in Europe (excluding Scania) would serve very well - as a depot for toxic waste and as an all European State Penitentiary for the criminally insane (fairly accurate translation). I caught hell from the boss next day: The SÄPO (Swedish Gestapo or KGB, Securitate or what have You) had crashed the server during the night. My boss said: "It's OK to raise a bit of hell; but I should consider we were in Swedish controlled territory."
There is a lot of supressed interest in Scania to get away from Stockholm (at least what I'm told); but they are biding their time - and Denmark is the only alternative.
 
As I said: I don't think they'll resort to violence - they are more akin to my late aunt that during the occupation caused the Gestapo quite some embarassement; they never got on to her. Tell you why: During the Scania war the Danish freedom fighters in Scania "liberated" a Swedish money transport (it was so heavy they had to offload their horses of loot) an buried the expropiated funds - across the boarder - in Sweden. They knew the oppressor would come down like a ton of bricks if they found a penny of it - so they didn't.
 
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addo       12/12/2006 3:38:30 AM

Haha.. Well well.. we are still bigger and better than you, in just about all aspects..
 
 
 
 
I considered letting JIMF have the pulpit - he does an excellent job.

 

As to civil war - I don't think it will come to that. I think Sweden will fall apart like the DDR.

 

Skåne get back to Denmark: Yup that's my plan. As to me being a nut - please refer to the preceeding paragraph.

 

As to Swedes loving other Scandinavians... Let me put it this way: I understand the missionary being inspected by cannibals.

 

As to the "kid brother complex" - I guess it is traumatic - to visit relatives ---- in jail.

 

As to freedom of expression: I once - after work (in Scania) - posted on a Swedish website, expressing that Sweden in Europe (excluding Scania) would serve very well - as a depot for toxic waste and as an all European State Penitentiary for the criminally insane (fairly accurate translation). I caught hell from the boss next day: The SÄPO (Swedish Gestapo or KGB, Securitate or what have You) had crashed the server during the night. My boss said: "It's OK to raise a bit of hell; but I should consider we were in Swedish controlled territory."

There is a lot of supressed interest in Scania to get away from Stockholm (at least what I'm told); but they are biding their time - and Denmark is the only alternative.

 

As I said: I don't think they'll resort to violence - they are more akin to my late aunt that during the occupation caused the Gestapo quite some embarassement; they never got on to her. Tell you why: During the Scania war the Danish freedom fighters in Scania "liberated" a Swedish money transport (it was so heavy they had to offload their horses of loot) an buried the expropiated funds - across the boarder - in Sweden. They knew the oppressor would come down like a ton of bricks if they found a penny of it - so they didn't.



 
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addo       12/12/2006 3:44:56 AM

Well; the immigrants and their children made 20 % of the population in 2002 and the Sweden is losing some 35-40K people a year, mostly people who are native Swedes and well educated.. so the future is clear if the path is continued.

 

10% aint true but the stories from Malmö and Gothenburg (relatives..) are pretty much like the stuff I hear from Marseilles (ex-gf).. Sweden will have very difficult problems with their Muslim minority in the next 5..10 years and Malmö and Göteborg are places to remember.  

 

All of the Swedish teachers  I met some time ago were very pro-Palestinian and anti-US and the mainstream news are there to see.. just chekc them and you´ll see that CNN has no agenda at all.  The country is run by social democrats and no one has the guts and ability to change the direction. The present "right wing" government cannot do much to change that, they need many many years before they can dig themselves out of the crap they have buried themselves in.


So you met a few teachers with a opinion??
Musta,..I live in Sweden, i am Swedish, are you telling me how the state of my country is?
 
Thomas and Musta this is all classical lillebrorskomplexet... give it a rest?
 
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mustavaris       12/12/2006 5:35:55 AM
Well...
 
I have relatives in Gothenburg, I have been in Sweden very many times, I meet Swedish people more or less regurlarly (the last case was in September when I met few teachers and their pupils), actually more often than I meet Finnish Swedish people and I stay in contact with few of them who live in Stockholm, Malmö and Göteborg. I can read Swedish as its a mandatory language here and I do keep myself in touch with Swedish medias, mostly online news and stuff like that. I also think that sometimes an outsider with certain distance can see something that is not so obvious from within.
 
 Of course, I do not even dare to say that I were neutral in this matter, I dont like much of the from cradle to the grave welfare state model and social democracy you got there, it is no secret - but the thing that makes the hair in my back rise is that you are heading for a worse situation than Netherlands or France are in and in those countries they are actually doing something to change the direction while in Sweden there is no serious talk about the problems at hand... Your media doesnt talk about things with their real names and avoids many of the most pressing questions. Add the economical factors and you got what I mean.
 
In 5...10 years you´ll be much wiser.
 
 
 
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mustavaris       12/12/2006 5:37:12 AM
Göteborg = Gothenburg.. damned bilingualism.
 
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mustavaris       12/12/2006 5:37:16 AM
Göteborg = Gothenburg.. damned bilingualism.
 
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