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Subject: Call for assistance....
JadeFalcon    11/14/2006 7:52:31 PM
First, pardon the intrusion - I know I'm new to this board and that this is my first post. I'm a writer, and I'd like to ask for some assistance from anyone who could provide some relevant information. A current storyline I'm working with has a character use a Walther WA-2000. The character then takes a shot through a bullet-proof limousine window in order to kill the official inside. While defeating this window is easy enough with an AP round, this causes a problem. From the research I've done, AP rounds have a lower ratio of lethality than standard JHP or FMJ rounds, as they penetrate straight through the target, instead of tumbling and fragmenting. What I'd like to know, or get, is suggestions on how to specialize the rounds in this character's weapon so that is both effective in defeating such obstacles, and still inflict major damage on a possible non-vital hit (i.e. non-headshot). Thank you in advance!
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Heorot       11/15/2006 1:58:53 PM
Try googling for Blended Metal ammunition.

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smitty237       11/19/2006 9:09:53 PM
You might be asking for a little too much of your weapon in this scenario.  My first question would be, "Why the WA-2000?"  Sure it's sexy and expensive, but if I wanted a weapon that would penetrate light armor I would use one of the .50 cal rifles like the Barrett, or maybe one of the European anti-material rifles, such as the Steyr.  Such weapons fire rounds that would easily penetrate bullet proof glass and do a lot of damage to the target on the other side.  The biggest disadvantage with those rifles would be that they would be hard to carry around without anyone noticing. 
Firing bullets through windows, especially car windows, can be a challenge for any sniper.  I saw an FBI training video that said that bullets fired through a window will drop as much as a foot after it goes through the window, which means you would have to aim a little high in the windshield to stand a good chance of achieving a chest shot.  I can only assume you would face similar challenges with a bullet proof windshield in a limousine or SUV.  Your angle of fire could compound the problem, since if you were firing from a high elevation the bullet would already be traveling downward.  Like any sniper shot, the most accurate one would be a straight shot at the same elevation as the target, but in your scenario that would place the sniper at street level, which could make a getaway harder. 
Since your target is a VIP, I would assume he would be riding in the back of the limo.  A shot through one of the side windows would be better here because shooting through the rear windshield presents the same challenges as the front window.  Your only chance at an accurate shot would be while the limo was stopped.  As far as your question goes, I think you might be biting off too much.  The biggest ballistic challenge is to penetrate the window.  AP rounds are designed to penetrate armor.  What happens on the other end is largely up to chance.  The bullet would need to maintain its integrity in order to effectively penetrate.  This affects the round's lethality because the most lethal rounds are ones that fragment or expand.  You might have to accept this as the price of doing business.  I guess it depends on how desperate the sniper (or his employer) is.  You may need to simply take the shot and hope for the best.  You may not kill your target, but hitting the target in the first place is most of the battle.  An upper torso shot through armored glass will more than likely take the target out of commission for a while, if not kill him. 
Oh, and one more thing.  Most of the limos that I have seen over the last few years have glass that is so darkly tinted that it is impossible to see the people inside.  How do you plan to get around that?  I hate to say this, but perhaps the best weapon against an armored vehicle is a vehicle packed with explosives parked along the route the limo is taking.  As soon as the limo passes the parked car you remotely detonate the explosives.  We've seen how effective this tactic is in the Middle East (so long as you are unconcerned with collateral damage).  Perhaps another alternative would be a light anti-tank missile fired through the roof.  I would suggest an AT-4 or similar weapon, but making a clean getaway could be a problem.
Good luck.
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Treadgar       11/24/2006 12:19:32 PM
Hello, I'm new here. This is also my first post. Reading your post reminded me of a book I read called Stone Dogs, I think the authors last name was Sterling. You might look there for some ideas and suitably modify them. I remember some kind of composite round the author described with a type of bullet suitable for AP and soft target penetration. It had something to do with a silicate core within perhaps a harder jacket. Like I said, I don't remember the details. Someone else here might. From what I remember the technology behind this bullet would be technologically feasible for current times.

Another idea I have is that you could possibly have a partner for your character, someone who shatters the window for a follow-up kill shot. This guy might even be used to disable the vehicle in some way as to bring it to a stop. Another possible scenario might be using different types of rounds stacked in the chamber. You could shatter the window with an AP round then follow up with something more appropriate for soft targets. Smitty237 probably has the most brutally effective techniques for this...

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Ehran       11/24/2006 2:25:14 PM
modern bp glass doesn't shatter so unless you put two rounds through pretty much the same hole a second shooter isn't that much help.  best way to do it is to put some 50 cal rounds through the passenger compartment.  i would suggest slap rounds as i don't think there is a limo made that will stop those.  the slap round though only has a 30 cal penetrator though it ought to be tumbling some by the time it hits meat.  because the windows are blacked out it's rather a crap shoot on whether you are going to get the primary.  to increase your odds you would need to punch more rounds into the passenger compartment.  this makes the shooter a lot easier to locate though and that reduces his survival chances.
best to get the official as he enters or leaves the vehicle if you want to use the walther. 
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Treadgar       11/25/2006 12:17:16 AM

You might be right, as for the utility of the second shooter that could be  endlessly debated.



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