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Subject: Ghosts, Demons, Vampires, Werewolfs, Spirits, etc
fall out    10/10/2004 9:33:23 AM
Following on from the alien discussions: Seeing as though we cant even comprehend about .000000001% (more zeros?) of the universe and it's workings, dont you think it could be possible for actual ghosts, demons, vampires, werewolfs, spirits, etc to exist? one of my mates who's a science freek said that human eyes can only see a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what is actually out there; ie from more colours, to atoms, so do you think it would be possible that ghosts, demons, etc are walking, floating, etc around us but our punitive eyesight cannot see them (except for perhaps short periods of time and/or when 'they' want us too see them)? demons could be responsible sometimes for such things murder, rape, child porn, etc, etc. vampires, as silly as it may sounds, the chronic shortage in blood for operations, etc even though many ppl give their blood. ghosts sometimes for some sudden heart attacks, etc Vampires and Werewolfs i believe have some merit, the idea that a human could be infected with various diseases, animal blood and that it somehow 'merges' with the host and creates a viable human with differing animal abilities is believable i reakon. There are so many ppl that go missing all the time and a tiny percentage are found again and i bet my bottom dollar that not all of them would've changed their name, etc or drowned when swimming alone, fell down a mountain, etc, etc. Just like a ghost show i once watched, 8 out of 10 'ghost' appearances and sightings can be explained, it's just the other 2 you have to worry about! :) Thoughts, Fall Out :)
 
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doggtag    RE:Ghosts, Demons, Vampires, Werewolfs, Spirits, etc   10/10/2004 12:02:19 PM
Exactly right, fall out It's the "what if" clause. Our eyes only see in the visible light spectrum. What about the other frequencies? And is it possible that such entities have formed a symbiotic relationship with humanity. Perhaps as we go from day to day, the cosmic wheels of fate and destiny have more pull on us than we think. We could certainly be part of a very large circle of life (cue Elton John music) than entails far, far greater things than just the narrow spectrum our human senses can perceive. Until we advance greater through scientific understanding, we will never find answers to such questions. Perhaps that's why science was frowned upon in the past: it would have revealed the demons and harmful entities that preyed upon humanity like parasites? Certainly, the possibilities exist that trans-dimensional and "ethereal" entities can manipulate and interact with us beyond our measure. Perhaps that too can be biblically explained, when the issue is raised (is it in Revelations?) about men being called to judge the angels in the end times. Perhaps there is an indication that our scientific knowledge and understanding of cosmic forces could take us to the point where we see that such unseen forces have for eons preyed upon mankind, and we will finally have the capabilities to turn the tables on such beings. What happens then? Is there then the possibility of seeking restitution from those parasitic races for all the crimes they've commited against humanity? Certainly, some would suggest they helped mankind grow,.. but at the expense of how many sacrifices for their pervers pleasures? (my, how does this wreak of Stargate!) Perhaps THAT is why many people of religions over the years have scorned science? Because science dispels superstitions and reveals the snake-oil salesmen and soothsayers for the parlor-trick artists that they are? This could get interesting. What happens when our comprehension of physics and cosmic principles takes us to the point which we can detect and even counter/repel "spiritual attacks" against human beings? Will our crime rate dramatically decrease? Religions like to claim that people can be possessed by demons and do unspeakable acts. But what happens when we arrive at the day when we can prove that some religions are actually in league with "demons" by supporting their activities (by instilling in people the need for sacrifices, why we must suffer so others can prosper, etc.) How will it affect society in general if we one day prove there is some sort of parasitic being that behaves on a trans-corporeal plane of exisence that can manipulate and shape our lives, wreaking havoc on our mental abilities because it somehow feeds on the energies we give off when we harbor thoughts of happiness and contentment, yet it can drive us to acts of "evil" when we don't supply it with sufficient "happy" fuel? Could humans be nothing more than cattle for some "spiritual" predator we've yet to discover? Is there also the possibility that such entities can alter genetic material, which decides who is born with afflictions and who is born in perfect health? Or entities which can, through thought or whatever, manipulate evolution's genetics to create the next super plague? The more we discover of science and the secrets of the universe, the more we can reveal the charlatans, hoaxes, and parasites to humanity, and actually get closer to the REAL God. Could it be possible that any beings such as werewolves, vampires, elves, etc, were the "fallen angels and demons", outcast from the stellar races for irrationale thinking and condemned to a life here (doing Hard Time on Planet Earth)? Could it be that they have then manipulated mankind into lives of scientific ignorance, preventing us from discovering who and what they truly were: nothing more than common criminals, just on an interstellar scale. Of course, that brings up another debate: if beings were cast down from the heavens eons ago, was the Earth, in its more "primitive days", a penal colony for alien races, only now as Earth has improved its condition, they suddenly want to play nice and get a bigger piece of the action,...like some planet-sized Australia on a great cosmic world? .
 
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eon    RE:Ghosts, Demons, Vampires, Werewolfs, Spirits, etc   10/12/2004 9:31:44 AM
I personally have always considered at least lycanthropes to be possible. There are at least two genetic disorders I am aware of that cause excessive hairiness of the body, one of which also causes the growth of pronounced canine teeth. So I would not consider the existence of the more "humanoid" form of "werewolf" that far-fetched. Vampirism does exist- as a mental disorder in which the sufferer believes they must consume blood and/or flesh to live. Peter Kurten, the "Dusseldorf Ripper" of the 1920's had this disorder; that case was the basis of Fritz Lang's classic psychofilm, "M". Other killers who had the same mental aberration included Ed Gein (the basis for Robert Bloch's 1959 novel "Psycho" and the 1962 Alfred Hitch film of the same name), Wayne Williams (the Atlanta serial child-murderer), and Jeffrey Dahmer. And of course there are all those "goth" types running around in black outfits with dead-poet makeup and razor blades on their necklaces, "sharing blood" and sleeping in coffins. So I think we can safely categorize "vampirism" as a mental rather than a physical state of being. Ghosts? That's a tough one. I have only ever seen one thing I would define as a "ghost", and I had witnesses. (Details on request.) I would have to say that most "ghosts" are not, in fact, any sort of conscious entity, but are rather a form of "recorded image" that can be "played back" like a video recording if the EM conditions in the vicinity are just right. I'm not saying that "conscious-entity" ghosts don't exist, just that I, personally, have never encountered one AFAIK. However, I must respectfully disagree with doggtag on the "demonic" origin of most human evil. In my abnormal-psychology/law enforcement training, I learned that "demonic possession" (i.e., "The Devil made me do it") is a favorite alibi of many criminal types, especially serial murderers. I believe that there are people who are, by nature, just "totally f***ing evil", and don't need any help in deciding to hurt others; as Clint Eastwood said of "Scorpio" in "Dirty Harry" (1971), they do it because they like it. As yet, I have seen no convincing evidence that anyone who is "demonically possessed" is a more likely murderer than someone like Ted Bundy, who just "got off" on it sexually. In fact, most "possession" cases I'm aware of seem to consist of the "entity" abusing the "possessee", as opposed to others (the case in Boston in 1955 that was the real-life basis for "The Exorcist" is a case in point; it was later made into a movie titled "Possessed", starring Timothy Dalton). IMHO, there is more than enough evil available from purely mundane sources in the world that we shouldn't be blaming it on the supernatural. To me, that seems like a cop-out..
 
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doggtag    RE:Ghosts, Demons, Vampires, Werewolfs, Spirits, etc   10/12/2004 5:01:07 PM
nice input, eon. But again, so much of this is certainly speculation and solely based on the methods we have to measure such things (as in modern psychiatric knowledge and criminal profiling as you suggest.) But part of the "what if" is considering the possibility that there is something greater that influences us to make choices we would not typically consider were we in our "right minds". And I am with you on the point that over the years, too many people who obviously are disturbed in their mental faculties indeed express pleasure in doing things labeled as evil, and certainly use "the devil possessed me!" as an excuse. (Could that be a sign of a true genuinely evil consciousness within a person? one of those outcast beings? Again, jusy one "what if" suggestion. But as we cannot 100 % prove or disprove it, we quite often keep looking for the most likely explanations that we can prove.) There is some suggestion that people with severe iron deficiencies who crave a lot of raw meat could have, in the past, also spawned the concepts of vampirism (blood being iron-rich.) And could it also be possible that, ages ago, the first "regular" humans who came upon some early examples of dwarf (little people, or midgets) humans might have explained them away as elves, faeries, trolls, or some other mythical creation? And considering the evolution of humanity, and certainly some of the animals that weren't yet extinct at the dawn of mankind, could those leviathans (like giant sloths and mastodons) have, over the years, evolved into the fables and tales of mythical, even demonic, beasts to frighten children? ("If you venture into the forest at night, the Ooga Booga will get you!") There is so much of our past history we can only speculate upon, and hope that much of what little recorded information that survived is actually historic facts and not some fictional stories written for amusement (were some cataclysm to fall upon our civilization today, how would the descendants of any survivors look back at today's records, and could they really discern what was scientific fact, and what was merely fictional stories of entertainment? And how would they, if a society of limited education, describe the past to their children? Would they also speak of wondrous animals long extinct by some future time as dragons and sea monsters? Even more interesting, what comes of humanity in the future when we can genetically alter ourselves to be more capable beings, allowing us greater senses, physical strength, and mental abilities? Should someone ever create a time device, how would their ancestors of 2 millennia past see them if they were to suddenly appear? Perhaps all this is the lure of fiction for humanity: all the what-if possibilities are limitless. And when we talk of things on such a vast cosmic scale, currently it is impossible to fully prove or disprove a good many of the hopes we have. And certainly our imaginations, our abilities to improvise, adapt, overcome, to think, is what makes us such a great species, even if at times our thinking becomes clouded and broken, confused to the point where we act abnormally, then later feel intense remorse and wonder for why we even considered acting in such a way in the first place. Perhaps for some people, believing that something unseen and even supernatural has manipulated them into choosing so poorly their actions is easier than accepting that they themselves might actually be flawed and capable of such things by their own free will. But again, it could be possible something unseen and manipulative DID affect them. We can only speculate. But since it all sounds so inconceivable because we cannot truly measure such things, we often disregard such possibilities and judge things only through the methods and measures we have. It's kind of that Occam's Razor argument: all things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best answer. But as we progress scientifically and come to a greater understanding of what being human means, and how we function (properly or improperly), then we often begin to dispel many of those simple explanations. Ages ago, when much of the population was uneducated, explaining mental illness as devil possessions was easier than explaining imbalances in brain chemistry. But certainly there are still situations of life that we cannot find simple explanations for. Such as how to treat a wide variety of cancers and cure certain diseases. Could it be possible that the still-unseen entities and forces that are beyond our measure and comprehension are what can manifest and manipulate some forms of diseases and illnesses in us? Could such forces be the very catalysts that have shaped evolutionary changes in the genetics of everything from the primordial soup to modern day life forms? Maybe compare to the "can't see the forest for the trees" analogy: sometimes, the trees before us are like giant, majestic redwoods, a
 
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fall out    RE:Ghosts, Demons, Vampires, Werewolfs, Spirits, etc   10/12/2004 10:44:21 PM
"Even more interesting, what comes of humanity in the future when we can genetically alter ourselves to be more capable beings, allowing us greater senses, physical strength, and mental abilities?" - it's called cyborg. ive read a bit about this and it is VERY interesting to say the least, and many prominent scientists, etc have forcasted that there will be 3 species on thie planet soon (easily within 50yrs), Humans, Cyborgs, Robots (with at least a semi conciouss), and really the problems with that could be simply enourmous. The problem with globalisation now, is that one or many country could ban such things as stem cell research, but there would ALWAYS be a few other countries somewhere that allow it and ppl can do their research there, or even if in the unlikely event that all countries banned it, international waters have no laws and someone with money could build a big boat to do the research on. same goes for cyborgs, more well off humans im sure would want to be able to see in the dark, have the hearing of a cat, be able to climb wall with their bare hands (using the suction caps of certain lizards, etc), the possibilities are endless and as such, it will create a massive divide in ppl, poor to middle class with normal human abilities, upper middle class to upper class with cyborg abilities and then robots who may or may not be subserviant to our needs (ala the recent will smith movie). i think this is something that should have at least constraints on it, but it's something that i can see simply not being able to be controlled and as such, brewing trouble for humanity (could it be that cyborgs and robots even kill off, or even send humans packing to another world?!). you can imagine when there are a number of cyborgs and robots, at first you'll have a number of cyborg only clubs, pubs, diners, etc, then you may have parts of towns, cities only for cyborgs, robots, and then....... "Should someone ever create a time device, how would their ancestors of 2 millennia past see them if they were to suddenly appear?" - that would be interesting, but VERY dangerous, it's been done in movies a number of times but the dangers of even killing hitler in 1920 is incredible, no hitler equals no nazis which means the communists would come to power in germany (as they were the 2nd biggest extremist group after the nazis) and that could possibly tip france over the edge into communism, italy could go, the UK could have at least problems, and as such ww2 could all be about communism v capitalism, what would be the outcome? possibly your granparents being killed for one, your parents not being born, and .... i think that when (it is a wuestion of when, not if, btw, how long do you think until we will have intersteller travel??) we can travel eons in a short timeframe, then it would be at least easier (not easy) to sort of replicate the technology and go back in time, but once again, it would be hard to control if the tech wasn't at first in military/govt hands and then if it falls into the wrong hands.........
 
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doggtag    RE:Ghosts, Demons, Vampires, Werewolfs, Spirits, etc   10/13/2004 11:42:11 AM
Thoughts on time travel hurts my brain too much! (shades of "The Final Countdown", where the Nimitz was transmitted back in time, by a freak "storm", to Dec 6, 1941 just outside Hawaii. "This is a United States ship! Or at least it was! Or will be! G*ddammit, it can drive a man crazy just thinking about it!" As far as humans becoming cybernetic beings: actually, I was more considering entirely genetically-enhanced humans, a neo sapiens if you care to borrow a term from anime. But certainly, some people might favor cybernetic implants as well: the world war of the future could well be a battle between "purist humans" (who denounce modifying what God created), those are genetically enhanced to be more capable, and those who are cybernetically enhanced to be more capable. That's where things start getting really interesting: where we start taking into account how will societal mentalities and world politics change to match pace with technology? .
 
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eon    RE:Time Travel, Cyborgs, etc   10/14/2004 9:28:45 AM
If Stephen Hawking is correct (and he usually is), time travel is possible; about twenty years ago he found an error in Rosen's equations indicating that "y-violation" is not impossible (as Rosen and Einstein postulated), i.e. that the so-called "arrow of time" does not favor one "direction" over the other. That said, I consider that attempts at same (which might be technically feasible within the next half-century) would be extremely dangerous; read John Birmingham's new novel "Weapons of Choice" for how "The Final Countdown" would have more probably fouled up history to the maximum extent. I firmly believe in the "butterfly effect" (as per Ray Bradbury's short story, "The Sound of Thunder", not the rather sappy movie of that name). Trying to change history? I defy you to travel into the past and AVOID doing it, just by being there (the anthropologist's "observer effect" carried to its logical conclusion- see Michael Moor's "Behold The Man" for the details). As for cyborgs, I'm going out on a limb and say; improbable. Why? Because I believe biotechnology will quickly outstrip even the wildest "Star Trek Borg" predictions. Why graft metal onto your body to accomplish, say, heightened reflexes, catlike night vision, and built-in armor vs. anything up to 7.62mm NATO, when a couple of injections of either nanotechnological surgeons and/or retrovirus DNA repatterners can do the same thing, without rejection risks? And as a plus, you continue to look more-or-less the same as before (handy for covert ops). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't at least some CTW personnel with such enhancements around right now, what with "black" projects traditionally running 10-15 years ahead of everything else. Some of them may even be posters on these boards...........
 
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eon    RE:Time Travel, Cyborgs, etc   10/14/2004 9:31:49 AM
That was Michael Moorc**k who wrote "Behold The Man", not the twit who made "Fahrenheit 9/11". I suppose this is one more example of the usurpation of perfectly good English words by the vocabulary of invective..
 
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doggtag    Underpants GNOMES, not monsters    10/14/2004 11:11:07 PM
There was even a South Park episode about them. .
 
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