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Subject: The armed forces of India whats so special?
JTR~~    6/7/2010 3:05:23 PM
Throughout these discussion boards i have found many, many references to the armed forces of India, and their apparent excellence. This may be the case but from what i am able to gather they are quite possibly the worst of today’s modern powers. i realise that i may be wrong which i why i have posted this query, my question is this, What qualities make the Indian armed forces worthy of holding the title of one of the best today? i have come across many examples where people have created top ten lists, and have ranked India above many western powers. i think that this is wrong, however this is my personal belief, which is why i am asking my question. i do not know too much about the Indian armed forces in their current state, i do however base my opinion of a few things that i do know. The most critical factor that is keeping India low in the rankings for me is this simple fact, logistics, form what i can gather the armed forces of India are quite possibly the world’s worst logistical nightmare; the huge variation in weapons that they field is unfeasible. How can such an army try and effectively field troops in such a way, prolonged engagements would be a dream that they could never achieve. i have done a little research into the various weapons fielded by the Indian forces and the mind boggles at the choice of arms, domestic weapons, Russian weapons, America weapons, British weapons, German weapons etc, the list goes on. One thing that i find quite amusing is the Indian navy; it is in the same situation as the Indian army in the fact that it has many ships, most of which have been purchased second hand from a consortium of countries after the original owners no longer need them. The Indian armed forces are using the western worlds outdated waste, it is to my understanding that the Indian navy recently purchased (or will be acquiring) the Royal navies invincible class carriers, they are effectively buying their old junk. These second hand outdated pieces of equipment are surely more of a hindrance to the Indian forces more than a help my second point, is it is simply impossible to train such large numbers of troops to a universally high standard, which means that many of the Indian troops while I’m sure they are capable, are just no up to the standard of many other nations, particularly those with lower troops numbers. There are several other points, but on these I am reluctant to comment as i feel i know to little to make any form of reasonable judgement, I realise that my opinions and points made may be unfounded and or wrong, but I’m willing to learn hence my question. Hopefully this will now help me to gain a little further insight into people opinion regarding the Indian armed forces Regards JTR~~
 
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Praveen    balanced opinion   6/13/2010 2:27:20 PM
On the development of the future soldier program, JTR, I think we do lag behind. Because future wars will be fought and won on the technological front. India is still getting there but since these programs are already taking shape, I believe there is somebody smart enough there to understand its not a distant shot and India has the capability. In military spending, we are conservative so any expense wont be a result of any generals whims and fancies. I would admit though that as of today, the advantage is with the western forces. However, since things have been taking an agile turn with the Indian defence forces, that can change soon, but no sooner than the next 5-7 years. Purely from conventional war point of view, other than US, Britain, France, Russia and China, I dont see any other country that could match up effectively to the Indian forces. Good news for India is that we are now having some debate about India matching upto the big 5 militarily. 10 years back this would be unthinkable!
 
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Praveen    balanced opinion   6/13/2010 2:36:59 PM
On the development of the future soldier program, JTR, I think we do lag behind. Because future wars will be fought and won on the technological front. India is still getting there but since these programs are already taking shape, I believe there is somebody smart enough there to understand its not a distant shot and India has the capability. In military spending, we are conservative so any expense wont be a result of any generals whims and fancies. I would admit though that as of today, the advantage is with the western forces. However, since things have been taking an agile turn with the Indian defence forces, that can change soon, but no sooner than the next 5-7 years. Purely from conventional war point of view, other than US, Britain, France, Russia and China, I dont see any other country that could match up effectively to the Indian forces. Good news for India is that we are now having some debate about India matching upto the big 5 militarily. 10 years back this would be unthinkable!
 
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Praveen    balanced opinion   6/13/2010 2:39:10 PM
Apologize.... for some reason, my reply seems to have been posted multiple times...
 
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JTR~~    appreciate your response praveen   6/14/2010 10:41:20 AM
You present a sound theoretical argument, however you must factor in that while India advances so does the western world, this is to say that the likes of Britain and the US will also advance considerably, and they will have the key advantage of having a more than considerable head start. one such example of that head start (now please bear in mind this is pure speculation but has some evidence here and there, it?s just a matter of finding reliable evidence) that the British have been developing reactive cage armour for their tanks and armoured vehicles, if you will, a simple comparison in basic terms would be to think of it as the world?s first primitive force field (not sure this is a entirely correct comparison however) and the US are still pushing ahead with their laser programs, both nations also have very advanced UCAV projects on the go.

As a passing note i have heard of the new Indian missile program, it sounds very impressive coming from India, you yourself may have heard of the Starstreak project of the United Kingdom, you may like to see how the two systems compare, i myself have not made any comparison between the two yet (perhaps I?m being bias here) but my money is on the Starstreak being the better system, but you may be right this is not to say that the Indian missile system is not suited to your needs, its all a matter of experience and i believe i am correct in saying that India is relatively new on the weapons development block hence the assistance from foreign nations.

 

i am interested into hearing more concerning about the Indian arsenal and the cut backs that you say they have made, yes your point is true that India has large borders to defend against a number of possible enemies and in the past here in the west it has had a reputation for being comparable to a sponge, it seems that India has been absorbing many hostiles into its territories, am i correct in saying this?

 

Regards JTR~~

 

 
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Praveen    India has indeed been a sponge   6/15/2010 11:34:55 PM
Let me address our reply in 2 parts:
 
On India getting ahead of US and UK in techcnological terms: Like you rightly pointed out, that despite India making great progress, it still playing the catch-up game. I dont see us bettering the technological research of US and UK in the next few decades. However considering we were late starters with the first 50 years focus mostly on Pakistan, we have leap-frogged into the elite club working on 5th generation military technologies. Realitically, India is looking more at collaboration and techcnological help from US and UK than competition. No prizes for guessing that we will not receive the bleeding-edge techcnologies from either countries, however that catapults us to a step behind US and UK from where we are today.
As a country, we are not prepared for something spectacular in military investments. Our doctrine is completely based on the threat perception at hand, in a defensive posture from hostile neighbors (Jihad and Maoism being the most notable exports from our neighbourhood). With the rising economic might, there are few other priorities that the nation faces (education, poverty, jobs, infrastructure and internal security) and this will continue to guide our defence spendings. What I see is 2 decades of focus on these developments and then the attention shifting to being a world leader in military technology. Till then our attempt will mostly be to try and keep pace with the best. That will effectively address our threat perception.
 
 
India being a sponge for the west: It indeed is. We share the same democratic values and similar ideologies that makes the west hated so much with the extremists. However our dismal internal security apparatus combined with corruption makes us a soft target for these elements. They can pass on the same message to the world without much sweat in executing an attack. Unfortunatley JTR, India cant choose its neighbours.
 
-Praveen
 
 
 
 
 
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Panther       6/16/2010 2:44:22 AM

 The Navy has all-indian-made frigates and destroyers. The russian aircraft carier Gorshkov is a temporary fittment while the naval dockyard produce India;s own next geneation aircraft carrier in 2014. The Navy is amongst the most advanced of the 3 forces for indegineous development.
 

The army is working on a concept soldier called "soldier as a system" which will enable its soldier to be prepared for modern warfare at par with the best in the world. Indian army already has started raising battallions on this line and it will take another 5 years for an implementation across its 2 million army and BSF forces.

 

And honestly, no point in comparing the Indian army to Europe's since the ideology and mandate of the indian army is different with totally differernt situation and challenges. India no longer regards Pakistan as a threat. The Indian armed forces can militarily neutralize pakistani war machine within weeks. however that is not the intention unless mumbai like attacks pre-empt such a situation. China is what India is preparing for. China is following a policy of encircling India through pakistan, nepal, bangladesh, myannmar and sri-lanka. It will be a cold war since India already has the capability to ensure mutually assured destruction with China.

 

Hope this gives a picture.


Hello Praveen. Interesting views. You brought up something interesting about India's own aircraft carrier program. I am left to presume you mean a pure indigenous design with no outside influence, or it will it be influenced from outside based on a foreign design, being built in India of course? And if so then who's design is of primary interest to the Indian navy? Will it be a light carrier, medium or a super carrier? Does India have a it's own indigenous designed and built naval warplane in R&D or will your navy continue relying primarily on Russian naval technology to supply  a little more than half of everything India's navy would need? So many  thoughts, so many questions....
 

 
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Praveen       6/16/2010 11:25:02 PM
The aircraft carrier is completely indigeneous. It follows India's first completely indigeneous nuclear submarine which was launched last year in order to provide a  nuclear triad giving capability to India to fire nuclear missiles from land air and sea. We had land covered through ballistic missiles, air through nuclear capable aicrafts and now water through the nuclear submarine and aircraft carrier. This ensures deterrent since India has a no-first-use policy on nuclear weapons.
The specifications on the type of aircraft carrier is strictly confidential with little information in the public domain on its capabilities. Like I said earlier, the Indian Navy's technology programme is way ahead of the army's or the air forces despite the indigenization of Navy starting much later in 1990's as compared to 1980' for the other services.
 
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Panther       6/19/2010 9:41:57 PM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Praveen!
 
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shakenone    indian arm forces   7/6/2010 6:17:15 AM
hi,
i am an Indian and like to present my point of view. you had asked "what qualities makes Indian arm forces to hold title above many other nations in the world??"
what you see from far is not true at all. you are evaluating Indian arm forces only on the basis of modern technology comparing with western world.you are not taking into account other aspects of Indian arm forces.Indian arm forces acknowledged all over the world because of its work.Indian arm forces were involved in maximum number of humanitarian works all over the world.This is even acknowledged by U.N. Indian arm forces are deployed in extreme feature of the world :
1.In the battlefield at the highest altitude in the world " L eh of Ladhak-highest battlefield in the world" . 
2.In the hot desert" Thar desert " in Rajeshthan and Gujrat.
3.In jungles of Assam,Arunachal pradesh,etc.
4.In plains of Punjab.
5.Involve in counter terrorism operations in  Jammu and Kashmir for the past 30 years with crossing Line of Control between India and Pakistan.
6.Deployed on the borders with Bangladesh,China,Pakistan,Nepal,Bhutan,etc. 
7.Indian navy involved in piracy operations in Africa. 
8.Indian Navy Responsible for safeguard communication lines,oil supplies,trade and cargo in Arabian sea,Indian ocean and Bay of Bengal through which 70% of world cargo supplies takes place.
 there are countless instances which i can talk about.
All these operations give large amount of warfare capabilities.
We have fought 4 wars with Pakistan in 1947,1965,1971-Creation of Bangladesh from Pakistan,1999-Kargil war.
War with china in 1962.
Liberated Maldives from the hands of L.T.T.E.
Helped Sri Lenka to fight against L.T.T.E. 
There very few nations in the world which are involved in such large number of  war operations after World War-II.
Indian arm forces do Military exercise, war games ,practice counter terrorism drills with wide range of nations which includes U.S, Britain, Russia, Israel ,Japan, China, Australia, Canada,South Africa, Brazil,etc.
This help arm forces to gain bulk of high confidence and to learn modern war tactics.
Indian arm forces institutes are consider one of the best military institutes in the World which includes National Defense Academy, Indian Military Academy,Indian Naval Academy,etc.
These institutes not only produce high quality officers for India but for other nations.
Indian institutes are given responsibility to raise and built arm forces for Afghanistan to fight terrorism.
On modern arms we are not far behind.
We have already developed nuclear submarine and will join exclusive club of 5 nations having  nuclear submarine by 2014. How many developing nations have this capability.
WE will have 3-Air craft carriers by 2017.At that time also only 2-3 will have More than 2 carriers not even Britain will have.
We are developing 5-generation air craft with Russia and Israel no other nation accept U.S.A have this capability right now and that time only few will have.
We have one of the best homemade satellite system in the world, only few nations have capability.
WE have large number of  U.A.V. only 7-8 nations have this thing.
already ordered 126 modern air crafts."largest arm purchase deal in the world". 
 one of The best weapons in the world M.I.G-29,Mirage-2000,T-90,T-72 tanks are some of them.remember not a single neighbor of India except Pakistan in sub continent have even 25% of these capabilities.
Also remember we are nuclear powered nation not many have achieved this till now not even western nations.
We have wide range of missiles even capable of caring nuclear war heads range from 100km- 4000km.
super sonic missiles the Brahmos missile and in process to develop hyper sonic missile in next few years.
Will develop ballistic missiles by 2015-2017. only handful of nations will have this capability at that time.
ABOVE ALL THESE WE DON'T USE WRONG WAS FOR OUR OWN INTERSTS ON THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY.
 WE DON'T SUPPORT OR SUPPORTED TERRORISM LIKE
1. PAKISTAN ARMY IN AFGHANISTAN AND KASHMIR.  
2.LIKE U.S A IN AFGHANISTAN IN 1980S.
3.DON'T POSSES CHEMICALS OR DIRTY BOMBS LIKE MANY NATIONS OF AFRICA AND MIDDLE EAST,IRAQ OR ANY OTHER.
4.DON'T HAVE BAD RECORD OF HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATION LIKE CHINA IN TIBET OR RUSSIA.
5.NOT IRRESPONSIBLE LIKE PAKISTAN ARMY,NORTH KOREA AND EVEN C
 
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smitty237    Ahem   7/6/2010 12:14:31 PM
After reading the above post I hearken back to my first post on this thread.  Indians have an extremely unrealistic view of their own capabilities.  Most of the "modern" weapons the poster described (i.e., the MiG-29 and the T-72) are hardly state of the art.  India has been unsuccessfully trying to develop their own main battle tank for decades, and are nowhere close to developing their own indigenous fighter.  Pretty lame for a country of nearly a billion people that love to brag about how modern and high tech they are.  India has the one of the finest military academies in the world?  Huh?  I've heard of Annapolis and West Point, and I've heard of Sandhurst, but has anyone outside of India heard anyone talk about the esteemed Indian military schools?  I didn't think so. 
 
By the way, the Indians gots their asses handed to them by the LTTE in Sri Lanka. 
 
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