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Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer    1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM
I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light
 
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DarthAmerica       1/22/2009 4:55:24 PM
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And here is a link backing up mine. Happy reading. I've read yours and I was there too at the end of the Cold War. So it's not a matter of you or I being right or wrong. It's an opinion. I assure you I can support mine as vigorously as you. I KNOW that the DoD and defense industry have tried to make the PRC fit the Soviet mold. I lived it. WHy do you think we have so much controversy when people like SecDef Gates come along? Or when F-22 production is capped? Or do you really think F-22's are built for bombing Taliban. It's right in your face. 


Think About It
-DA 
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       1/23/2009 3:09:50 AM
"Some of the Hostility is due to competing interest but a lot more of it is due to the end of the Cold War. Our defense establishment  is/was designed around the idea of fighting a near peer competitor in global giant WW 2 style battles. After the Soviets fell there was the massive downsizing of the U.S. Military and this threatened a lot of jobs as well as traditional thinking about what war is now. So there was a rush to vill the void left by the Soviets with an enemy we were already familiar with and prepared to fight. China filled that void in a lot of minds and thus the DoD went charging ahead with a determination that it was preparing to fight China and completely ignored the fact that the most serious threats weren't large nation states at near peer level but in fact asymmetric non-state entities. When we got 9/11 it brought things back into focus somewhat about who the enemy really is. While China is clearly a competitor and could potentially be a threat to the USA, it is not an enemy right now and is far less likely to go to war with the USA than many other nations if one understands the political, military and economic realities of a USA vs PRC conflict."
 
 
Darth, you are way off.  China has labled the West as its enemy since Portugese troops set foot on then and still independent Taiwan.  The Chinese pushed them off land wise but were surprised at the advanced nature of the barbarian's navy.  And the Portugese of course paled to the British and French in the Opium War.

China made its intentions against the West known in the Boxer Rebellion, and that spirit still  lives strong within each Chinese and the Chinese gov't.  The West chose to ignore it when the PRC kicked out the British with a gang of "fen qing" or "angry youth" (or "shit youth", hehe) before the Korean War.  The Korean War occurred because China did not want a US friendly Korea on its border, China has either occupied or controlled Korea for 3000 years and still lays claim to 30 percent of its territory.
 
 DA, go back to one of my earlier posts on this thread and read the site I linked regarding how the PRC teaches its youth.   It is training them to hate the West and specifically the US.  The poison is so venomous that girls with western boyfriends, even young, good looking ones, face a barrage of insults wherever they go.  And physical attacks have become pretty frequent.
 
 
China wants and even intends to eventually topple the US and take its "rightful place" at the top of the global political, economic and military food chain.  China has always seen itself as the gatekeepers between the barbarians of the world and heaven.
 
That means there will be war.
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    Darth.   1/23/2009 3:20:02 AM
I can't exactly tell you why Softwar is right and you are DEAD wrong, but I KNOW you are WRONG.

Think about it. YOU are not the subject expert.
 
Herald.

 
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gf0012-aust       1/23/2009 5:40:56 AM
I'm more with softwar and nan on this one.

having just gone through a briefing about ITARs breaches by US companies (and no offence, but the next time some US Senator decides to do an Obey Amendment and wax lyrical about the need to protect  the jewels from indolent allies, then they need to have a look at who's been doing all the violations and how they chose to violate and then look at the numbers on how much they were fined for breaching) 

It's pretty clear to me that we're in for a long haul - and the mainland chinese have been working the numbers...  I say that as someone with chinese DNA coursing through my blood, and as someone who has been able to see them "at play" in a cybersense.

anyone who thinks that they're just happy to get along with everyone has no comprehension of the history of their culture - and they've got a few hundred years of resentment  that has not yet been burnt off.

to be frank, the "happy hunting years" up to GHB was political  sucker punching at work.  US pollies got played on a break and refused to listen to all the words of warning that they were "marks"
 
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Scoobydo       1/23/2009 7:30:13 AM
"While China is clearly a competitor and could potentially be a threat to the USA, it is not an enemy right now and is far less likely to go to war with the USA than many other nations if one understands the political, military and economic realities of a USA vs PRC conflict."
 
While what you say is true, it was also true in 1941 for Japan and it didn't stop the Japanese from Bombing Pearl Harbor.
 
Don't under estimate how much the Chinese want revenge.  I lived there for 8 years and I know what I am talking about.
 
The Chinese are taught about the wars with the West in the 19th century as if they happened yesterday and they feel they have a score to settle. They feel a deep sense of shame that needs to be avenged. They also feel that they should be the leader of the world and deeply resent the fact that the USA is at the moment.
 
Western people make the mistake of thinking that the Chinese think like them. They don't.  They think like Chinese people and 'face' is everything. They lost face as a nation in the 19th century and trust me, they, as a nation will get try to get it back.
 
What else should we bear in mind?
 
The Chinese can be extremely cunning on a low level, so low, that you won't even see coming because it is so obvious.
They over estimate themselves as individuals and as a nation and under estimate everyone else.
The Chinese are extremely nationalistic and always have been.
Chinese pride in their own power has been increasing at a rapid rate in the last couple of years (I can remember thinking last year that Chinese people used to pretend to like Western people more).
 
The USA fought China in the Opium wars, the Korean war and the Vietnam war (China had a lot of 'advisors' in Vietnam).
 
China is a rising power while the USA is seen by Chinese people to very much be a declining power.
 
There will be another war between China and the USA. What is so surprising about that?
 
Are wars a thing of the past? Is the USA so powerful that no one would dare take it on?
 
Well, the Chinese don't see it that way.  They are taught that they defeated the USA in the korean war and lets face it, they certainly didn't lose.
 
They are relatively stronger now and the USA is relatively weaker and every Chinese person knows it.
 
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Softwar       1/23/2009 9:32:57 AM

And here is a link backing up mine. Happy reading. I've read yours and I was there too at the end of the Cold War. So it's not a matter of you or I being right or wrong. It's an opinion. I assure you I can support mine as vigorously as you. I KNOW that the DoD and defense industry have tried to make the PRC fit the Soviet mold. I lived it. WHy do you think we have so much controversy when people like SecDef Gates come along? Or when F-22 production is capped? Or do you really think F-22's are built for bombing Taliban. It's right in your face. 

 

Think About It

-DA 

A single book by one guy is not proof - its opinion.  Documented proof comes in the form of actual correspondence and actions carried out by the parties involved.  For example, the USAF working with the PLAAF to train them during the 1990s.  This fact does not fit your "Pentagon" conspiracy at all.
 
FYI - the F-22 was built for the Cold War to fight the USSR - the threat from China is a result of the PLAAF flying the SU-27 Flanker series (J-11B).  Thus, the F-22 is doing as it was designed - countering advanced Soviet designs.  Again, this does not fit your conspiracy theory. 
 
We are not the only nation to recognize the threat from Beijing - India, Australia, Japan, South Korea to name a few.  They do not fit your Pentagon conspiracy theory either. 
 
Darth, your fascination with conspiracies is almost too funny.  Its easy to be stupid and believe a conspiracy while facts stare you in the face. 

 
http://www.softwar.net/PLAAFAA2.GIF" />
http://www.softwar.net/PLAAFAA3.GIF" />
http://www.softwar.net/PLAAFAA4.GIF" />
 
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YelliChink       1/23/2009 11:01:53 AM
It's impossible not to agree with Softwar, Nan, Herald, gf and scoobydo on this one.
 
You have people not just from US hawks, but also Australian and Taiwan agree on the same thing. US defense and foreign policy is not shaped by military industrial complex alone.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       1/23/2009 11:35:11 AM

It's impossible not to agree with Softwar, Nan, Herald, gf and scoobydo on this one.

 

You have people not just from US hawks, but also Australian and Taiwan agree on the same thing. US defense and foreign policy is not shaped by military industrial complex alone.

China policy has been shaped by "China hands" and their corporate backers since Nixon turned his back on Taiwan and Tibet.
 
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DarthAmerica    Softwar , gf0012, Herald, Scooby   1/23/2009 4:27:14 PM
First of all, I respect your opinions. But on this one we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm very well familiar with this subject matter inside and out and I do not see the looming Red Dragon threat as you do. I understand full well the capabilities they are developing and the potential consequences some of those capabilities could have in a shooting war. However to me that is analogous to a next door neighbor buying a similar luxury car. Yes it may be almost as nice as you and if you were to race it perhaps it could offer serious competition.  But the potential alone isn't enough for me and a lot of others of us in defense. The closest I can come to your thinking is that China is indeed a competitor but certainly not my enemy. I'm well familiar with any materials you could post and some you can't and my OPINION of it is different. Also, Herald, I'm willing to remain civil in my disagreement but lets not go down the path of comparing defense/security expertise considering how that usually ends up in threads where we disagree.

I'll follow this thread closely and chime in where appropriate with my opinion but I just wanted to share with you my disagreement with the assertion that the PRC is evil and an enemy of the USA. 


Regards
-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       1/23/2009 4:38:22 PM

First of all, I respect your opinions. But on this one we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm very well familiar with this subject matter inside and out and I do not see the looming Red Dragon threat as you do. I understand full well the capabilities they are developing and the potential consequences some of those capabilities could have in a shooting war. However to me that is analogous to a next door neighbor buying a similar luxury car. Yes it may be almost as nice as you and if you were to race it perhaps it could offer serious competition.  But the potential alone isn't enough for me and a lot of others of us in defense. The closest I can come to your thinking is that China is indeed a competitor but certainly not my enemy. I'm well familiar with any materials you could post and some you can't and my OPINION of it is different. Also, Herald, I'm willing to remain civil in my disagreement but lets not go down the path of comparing defense/security expertise considering how that usually ends up in threads where we disagree.




I'll follow this thread closely and chime in where appropriate with my opinion but I just wanted to share with you my disagreement with the assertion that the PRC is evil and an enemy of the USA. 







Regards

-DA 

NAN sorry to have left you off the list of people I disagree with...;) One more thing Softwar. I don't know what conspiracies you are referring to but if it's the Military Industrial Complex, that isn't a conspiracy at all. It exist out of necessity and I'm glad but I do know it's not always acting in our interest with regard to security issues. What that means is mismanaged programs, waste, focus on the wrong threats and things of that nature. None of this is to say we should not have a DoD capable of defeating any nation in a shooting war. Just that the PRC is not a particularly menacing threat outside of it's own territorial waters. 

-DA 
 
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