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Subject: Why all the hostilities towards China?
analdestroyer    1/19/2009 12:29:29 AM
I sometimes wonder why all the hostilities towards china in this forum?, i even read that someone suggested the US to send B2 to wreck chinese three gorges dam? where all of this come from, is it from jealousy?, certaintly not as you americans has been living so well off, is it because dare i say 'fear' as the chinese are rapidly catching up on you, certainly this is exagerrating, no matter how fast the chinese are growing its still decades away to be on the same footing as the US, or is it because they are different? different in their way of doing things that you guys are so worked up, different yet produces the same or arguably better results, for example china is not democracy so it must be evil, yes china is not democracy nor it needed to be at the moment, but its heading that way, for democracy to work first the state must achieve stability and to achieve stability means continuing economic growth, after all democray is where the people become more affluent and so they demand more say on how goverments run things, remember democray does not make western countries rich, they become rich because of colonization (mercantilism) and industrialization (which is what the chinese are doing), secondly your mantra of free market capitalism over state controlled economy, you seems to think that the state is naturally idiot and the market is naturally brilliant, guess again it was an epic mistake, it is you who now moving toward state control—by nationalizing the banking and car industries, and imposing heavy new regulation on the financial industry, accusing them of yuan depreciation while ignoring the fact that is has been increasing by 21.5% towards the dollars, the chinese are a nation of learners they learn from others success and mistakes, they want to avoid the fate of russia in 90's moving too fast from socialism economy to free market and democracy, you americans called it shock therapy which proves to be all shock and no therapy, and you might be suprised that 8 out of 9 of its top leaderships is engineers instead of attorneys and lawyers like in the US you should read this article on newsweek http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810/page/1 its quite rare US media potrays China in positive light
 
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Godofgamblers    softwar   2/24/2009 9:04:11 PM





As for corruption, Softwar, things are slowly improving. (Herald, Billy of Lippo Group whom we recently discussed just got 3 years for bribing a judge, by the way?maybe there is progress). I'm interested that you know about Paiton, Softwar.... very few are aware of this.... it merits a thread in itself, i wish i had the time...



 





 

Back in the 1990s - I accidently ran accross a Commerce document that noted the ADB (Asian Development Bank) was "skiddish" about President Suharto's daughter being a minority shareholder in a project involving EXIM bank/ADB bank backing.  The same document details the "allegations" that the French paid "incentive money" to the Suharto regime in order to land a satellite launch deal.

 

Being the pain in the butt I am - this led me to do additional FOIAs against both Commerce and State - which brought such gems as "first family involvment" detailing a $50 no payback loan for Suharto's daughter.  Typical scam - stock in Paiton given to daughter who used it as collateral for a $50 million loan - with the stipulation that she will pay back the $50 million once the Paiton deal brought profits to the stock holders.  Of course, it never will but she still doesn't have to pay back the money.

 

All of this opened a big can of worms.  The State Dept., EXIM bank, Commerce, ADB and a vast array of US corporations not only knew about the bribes but settled for varying amounts of "KKN" (corruption, collusion and nepotism) all very well documented.  Edison Mission Energy, Enron, Calenergy, and others.  It also brought in Warren Christopher - who not only knew of the bribes but worked to cover it up as well as a host of others in and out of the Clinton administration.

 

One set of documents on Suharto corruption ended up detailing a secret meeting between Commerce and the CIA - including ex-Lippo banker and illegal DNC donor John Huang.  Huang sat throught the secret meeting and reportedly cruised across the street afterwards to his old place of work and placed a long distance call to his ex-boss - Moctar Riady.  Huang later pled guilty to passing illegal money to Clinton and cited his Fifth amendment rights over 2000 times when asked if he was working for the Chinese Army.

 

All of this is detailed with backing documents.  You can find a good batch of them here:

 


 

In the end - lawyers for PLN called me and got copies of everything I had - most is on the net.  They used it to invalidate the power plant deals since the corruption was approved from the get go.  While it is way past the statute of limitations - I think the Foreign Corrupt Practices act does allow for stockholders to sue for the bribes paid out.  Sad to say - no one at Edison, Calenergy or others has ever contacted me on that part.

 

Still - I basically found a thread - that led to a string - that lead to a rope and so on... 


The Paiton mess is a major albatross around the neck of Indo and i don't see any clear resolution as not only were all the political elite of indo at that time complicit, but the agreement was also signed by high level reps of the US and Japan, among others.
It has often been claimed that Suharto was not exceptionally corrupt but his weak spot was his family, as he just never had the heart to reign them in, and the Paiton deal may be an example of this. Habibie was a major actor in this burlesque too. He claims he did it all for "the good of the nation" and then retired to his castle in Germany....
 
KKN was the guiding principle of the Suharto years, as you rightly point out. Another legacy of the Suharto era...
 
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Nichevo       2/26/2009 1:14:37 AM

That you would use and arguement that a "dictator is a patriot" or "do what needs to be done" shows an incredible lack of understanding of humanity and an ignorant, jaundiced view towards life. Any one who beleves such things are iether a retard or a authoritarian supporting pig who deserves a dance on the end of a rope ( like one of your idols, Mussolini). Many dictators have described themselves as patriots however this is known as "justification" , many criminals do this to lessen the effects of their crimes upon themselves. As an individual from a democratic free nation, I believe this can never be tolorated, the rule of (responsible, representable) law must be upheld for all.

I'll say this - there are hard times in which hard men must do hard things.  (The following may therefore seem hypocritical, but:)
 
What you gotta watch out for is the people who revel in it.  See it as an expression of virility, sincerity, authenticity.  Like our unfriendly neighborhood sodomite.   Talk about getting your gun off!  I think I could force myself, at need of course, to kill or hurt people - perhaps with time and practice I could get used to it to the point where I was indifferent - but I don't know what it would take to make me like it; hope I never do.
 
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HERALD1357    The difference between a caudillo, a dictator, and a tyrant.    2/26/2009 7:26:18 AM



That you would use and arguement that a "dictator is a patriot" or "do what needs to be done" shows an incredible lack of understanding of humanity and an ignorant, jaundiced view towards life. Any one who beleves such things are iether a retard or a authoritarian supporting pig who deserves a dance on the end of a rope ( like one of your idols, Mussolini). Many dictators have described themselves as patriots however this is known as "justification" , many criminals do this to lessen the effects of their crimes upon themselves. As an individual from a democratic free nation, I believe this can never be tolorated, the rule of (responsible, representable) law must be upheld for all.





I'll say this - there are hard times in which hard men must do hard things.  (The following may therefore seem hypocritical, but:)


 

What you gotta watch out for is the people who revel in it.  See it as an expression of virility, sincerity, authenticity.  Like our unfriendly neighborhood sodomite.   Talk about getting your gun off!  I think I could force myself, at need of course, to kill or hurt people - perhaps with time and practice I could get used to it to the point where I was indifferent - but I don't know what it would take to make me like it; hope I never do.


It comes down to ego.
 
While Franco was a harsh and ruthless man, and Spain truly suffered under his rule, it was a RULE. He was consistent. Like Octavius Caesar of ancient Rome he had an agenda based on reform and his world view that emphasized law and order-social quiet. If the citiizenry shut up and let things run in the traditional way, there wasn't too much fuss. Jails would fill up with loudmoiuths and there were a few executions to remind everybody that there was a strongman running things.
 
Then there is somebody, a tyrant, like Stalin-a complete sociopath. Here the strongman lets his ethnic, religious, and class bigotry, plus his his essentoially godlike vision of himself as the supreme authority create a cult of personality. He considers himself an infallible god. The resuslt is usually measured in megadeaths-first on the people he oppresses, and then in the nations he attacks. Similar case studies are the criminals, Mao tse Dung, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Adolf Hitler, and the Kims of the DPRK, Robert Mugawbe, just about thug head of any African failed state, or Ba'athist moslem regime including the current heads of the Syrian land thieves political entity, and Syria itself. .      .     
.  .    
Then there is the dictator who falls somewhere in the middle. He wants to be a caudillo, like Franco, but finds circumstances or continued popular resistance, pushes him into extreme measures such as Shah Pahlavi faced in Iran, Peron faced in Argentina, or Suharto faced in Indonesia. The bad news is that the dictator comes to resemble the sociopath tyrant in methods and  outcomes-just not as extreme. The good news is that the dictator usually forces the opposition to mature very fast and develop the political skills to run the country once the dictator does or is overthrown.
 
If the opposition is secular and democratic, you get a result like Peru, or Brazil. If it is not, you obtain a fascist result, like China now, or Italy between the world wars.  
 
The cure then becomes worse than the original disease.
 
And then you look to your arms, because such illegitimate states turn to war to legitimize their rule.
 
Herald

 
 
 
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cwDeici       2/27/2009 8:12:02 AM

That you would use and arguement that a "dictator is a patriot" or "do what needs to be done" shows an incredible lack of understanding of humanity and an ignorant, jaundiced view towards life. Any one who beleves such things are iether a retard or a authoritarian supporting pig who deserves a dance on the end of a rope ( like one of your idols, Mussolini). Many dictators have described themselves as patriots however this is known as "justification" , many criminals do this to lessen the effects of their crimes upon themselves. As an individual from a democratic free nation, I believe this can never be tolorated, the rule of (responsible, representable) law must be upheld for all.


His arguments are very stupid, and your argument about 'justification' strikes the truth but you overshoot the target quite awfully. You're right that anyone using his arguments are likely to be either fascists or stupid but its certainly no certainty (not that I am).
 
There have certainly been competent patriotic dictators and incompetent democracies throughout history. As an individual from a free democratic nation I would've hoped you had a more open mind.
 
The minimum of sin dictators are guilty of is breaking free will, the rest depends on their performance.
Notably however, democracies have performed very well in regards to human rights and efficient rule and military, and in periods of strong moral character - high morale.
 
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cwDeici       2/27/2009 8:15:17 AM
And on the other side of the coin authorianism usually does somewhat badly, but there are exceptions.
 
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cwDeici       2/27/2009 8:18:05 AM
The worst of excesses can also be mostly ascribed to authoritarian regimes (and a few democratic ones if you figure in all of history). It's hard to tell the really long-term results of the sort of democracy we have now though... democracies tend to collapse under expansion due to logistics. Maybe if our models of mutually dependent nationstates of a short logistical range continues... of course that'd mean independance for any far-flung space colonies.
 
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chulk       2/28/2009 2:36:01 AM

 

   I've never posted here before but have read through many of the threads over the years, and found them to be interesting. This one struck a nerve, because as regular guy with children, I sometimes think about things like what the future holds for my children, and my country.  The OP (with the grotesquely, translated handle), basically asks why many of us in America see China as an enemy, and are thus hostile in our thinking towards it. 
 
   I hardly find it necessary to engage in history lessons or moral discussions in this regard.  Rather, I would simply ask myself, "Who has the gun pointed at my head?"  I believe even a lay person, who bothers to educate them self in world matters, can easily come to the conclusion it is China who gearing up its military and economic policies to destroy the US at its earliest possibility.  We have good reason to be hostile...
 
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afrikan_neekeri       3/9/2009 8:12:23 PM
Why are Amurikans hostile towards PRC? I have a theory. Since the Soviet Union is no more, they need someone else to complain about human rights, etc- "Boehoehoe you are so evil because you don't have American democracy!"
 
I suggest some of you take the next plane to Shanghai, have some nice time in Lujiazui and Puxi and you might think differently after a couple of nightclubs http://strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emsmiled.gif" align="absmiddle" border="0" alt="" />
 
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HERALD1357    I've seen the PRC swine.   3/9/2009 8:22:21 PM

Why are Amurikans hostile towards PRC? I have a theory. Since the Soviet Union is no more, they need someone else to complain about human rights, etc- "Boehoehoe you are so evil because you don't have American democracy!"

 

I suggest some of you take the next plane to Shanghai, have some nice time in Lujiazui and Puxi and you might think differently after a couple of nightclubs http://strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emsmiled.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" />

their ruling class, at work and I've seen how they really treat the Chinese people.
 
Have you been outside the tourist zones?
 
Herald
 
 
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sinoflex       3/9/2009 11:14:32 PM




Why are Amurikans hostile towards PRC? I have a theory. Since the Soviet Union is no more, they need someone else to complain about human rights, etc- "Boehoehoe you are so evil because you don't have American democracy!"



 



I suggest some of you take the next plane to Shanghai, have some nice time in Lujiazui and Puxi and you might think differently after a couple of nightclubs http://strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emsmiled.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" />




their ruling class, at work and I've seen how they really treat the Chinese people.

 

Have you been outside the tourist zones?

 

Herald


 

Agreed.  The vast majority of Chinese (over 800 million) still live in rural areas as peasants in 3rd world conditions.  The Communist government does not advertise the unrest, civil unrest and protests in the countryside.  The system is rife with corruption, local party officials in bed with business interests, at the expense of average citizen.  And the Party has no interest in reforming itself.  Here is their formal declaration of non-reform and condemnation of western institutions:
 
h**p://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29600839/
 
 
 
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