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Subject: marines and the navy
qwertyuiop    9/27/2004 10:07:14 PM
the marines are suppossed to have a very strong relationship with the navy. What i don't understand is why the marines have just been acting like some other elite army divisions. How are they now different from the army?
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USN-MID    RE:marines and the navy   9/28/2004 12:26:51 AM
They move around in self-contained fighting packages onboard Navy ships, for starters. While they're not as heavy on the numbers, they still have armor, aviation, and artillery assets on top of the infantry. It's all right there, and ready to go. They're also the only force, and probably the best in the world at amphibious landings as far as getting things organized ashore and moving large quantities ashore. Although it hasn't been done for a while, it's still a skill they practice. It's a forward deployed combat force, and they can also receive a lot of firepower support from the Navy.
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Worcester    RE:marines and the navy-amphib   9/28/2004 8:19:18 PM
An opposed amphibious landing is THE most difficult military operation bar none. The variables are ridiculously difficult. All navies worth their salt have always known that sea power includes the ability to extend sea power on to land; after all, 75% of the worlds population lives within a 1 hour helo flight of the sea. Marines have been around in the major navies for centuries (we started in 1775, the Brit RM in 1664): first to maintain discipline (when navy crews were civilians - volunteer or not); second to train the crews to fight ship-to-ship (much naval gunnery, from sniping in the rigging to manning main guns, was originally a marine job hence titles like "Gunnery Sergeant" or "Gunny"); third to organize "descents" (raids) or full scale landings on enemy coast lines, harbors and ports. Hence their amphibious expertise. You referred to their "close relationship"; in fact, although they HATE to admit it, the Commandant of the Marines is a subordinate of the Chief of Naval Operations. Just like most other marine corps, USMC are not a seperate service but an independent corps within the naval service. Their job is to kick open the coastal "doorway" and let the rest of our forces get ashore.
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Worcester    RE:marines and the navy-loiter   9/28/2004 8:29:16 PM
Should have added: The ability to use sea ways (without asking other nations for overflight or basing rights), the ability to loiter a large amphib force just over the horizon almost indefinitely make marines exceptionally useful as tools of deterence, persuasion and war. Should also have added that the strategic and tactical ethos is very different from the army, and so is their equipment. Marines live for expeditionary warfare. They are recruited and trained for intensive overseas operations for most of their careers - most army personnel would not wish to be on a ship for months on end. Marine tactics are highly aggressive and they are conditioned to accept high casualties and arguably trained to a much higher standard; note that ALL marines, regardless of specialization, are trained and expected to fight as infantry. Helo pilots, engineers, artillery all started as grunts and can fight as such - makes for a very cohesive formation. Their equipment is also quite different - amphibious amtracs to get ashore, lighter, helo-lift artillery, more numerous helos and use of the Harrier and F/A 18 for their own air missions. The nearest army divisions would be the 82nd and 101st, neither of which have the same air support or armored vehicles or logistcis support or amphib capability.
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Sam    RE: CMC/CNO   9/29/2004 11:46:28 PM
Worcester Not too many years ago what you said about the Commandant being junior to the Chief of Naval Operations would have been correct. I think it was either Bush or Clinton that made the CMC a "Full" member of the JCS. Look now Gen Pace is the Vice Chairman of the JCS. Which makes him senior to both CMC and CNO
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HJ    RE: CMC/CNO   12/21/2004 3:52:35 PM
True. The Commandant and Chief of Naval Operations both sit as members of the Joint Chiefs. Congress is the body that sets forth relationships and ranks(the president nominates 3 and 4 stars to Senate for comfirmation). Both head coequal services now under the Secretary fo the Navy, but operate and train quite a bit together.
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rikopotomous    RE:marines and the navy   12/21/2004 7:12:20 PM
the marines rely on the M198, not the lightest of artillery pieces, yes they have the CH-53E, can carry 4 times as many men as the CH-47D but theyre comparable in weight they can lift. The marines have the schitty AV-8B and the gr8 F/A-18. They dont have the Apache like the 101'st and theyre gonna have plenty of air cover from the Air Force and theyve got the M119 105 mm Howitzer which is alot lighter and can be set up alot quicker and towed by a HMMWV. (a whole battery with ammo and crew can be moved in by 4 chinooks) It's been said 1000 times, the marines are best for littoral operations and the army is best for inland operations. The marines are more aggressive because an amphibious landing on a defended shore and inland area is straight up the middle fighting, theres no maneuver.
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F22    RE:marines and the navy   12/21/2004 11:04:41 PM
Rik, why do you have such a low opinion of the Harrier?
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timon_phocas    RE:marines and the navy   12/22/2004 7:10:28 PM
The Navy still thinks the Marine Corps is part of the Navy. A Navy Commander said that to me early this month. I told him that whereas I demure at that statement, we both knew who to cheer for in the Army/Navy Game
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HJ    RE:marines and the navy   12/22/2004 7:36:48 PM
Well, that's partially true; USMC is part of Department of the Navy with its own budget and the Commandant is now equal with Chief of Naval Operations. USMC + USN = DoN. So it depends on what you mean when you say "Navy". USMC is not part of USN, but it does fall under DoN.
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