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Subject: Was the USMC the appropriate force to send to Baghdad?
towgunner1960    10/3/2003 10:46:39 PM
I submit that it might have been more efficient to send British troops north to Baghdad instead of the Marine Corps, for the following reasons; U.S. Army and U.K. troops have trained together to fight the type of war that was fought for the last 50 odd years. (Mechanized warfare). The Marine Corps armor, excepting the M1 are totally unsuited for RAPID desert armored fighting, i.e. aav, lav and M198. U.K. and U.S. Army are equipped exactly the way you need to be to fight this type of war,(M1, M2-3, M109), (Challenger, Warrier, AS90). This gives them the ability to shoot and scoot, and to slug it out if needed. The Marine Corps has never trained with the Army to fight massive Soviet style forces the way U.K. and U.S. Army have. It might have been better for USMC to have taken over the British role, attacking southern Iraq, where they could have worked as a combined arms team with naval support, the way they have for over 200+ years. Long range desert armored warfare is not a Marine mission with the equipment and the training they have. If they want to equip themselves the way the Army does to fight this type of war, then they risk losing capability to fight the littorial type of war that they are so magnificant at. This is no way a slight against the Marines, who I have trained with and admire. But what nation can afford to have two armies? If they insist on trying to compete against the Army for that mission, (mech warfare), then what need is there for a Marine Corps? You might as well combine them with the Army.
 
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S-2    RE:S-2/Heorot Reply Addendum   10/27/2005 5:07:27 PM
In addition to the 10th and 14th USAAF, whom provided log supt. to the 20th USAAF (three U.S. Army Air Force Commands), and numerous Air Transport Commands, the U.S. Army provided the following- 612 Field Artillery Bn., 613 Field Artillery Bn. 5307th Composite Unit (Merrill's Marauders), 5332 Brigade (Provisional), 475th Inf. Regt. (Provisional), and 124th Cav. Regt. (Provisional). Extensive service/support elements as well. Extensive command elements commanding Chinese forces in theatre. Haven't got to the engineers yet. Do I need to for your further satisfaction?
 
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S-2    RE:S-2/Heorot Reply Addendum II   10/27/2005 5:17:35 PM
For your further satisfaction- UNITES STATES FORCES U.S. AIR CORPS CHINA-BURMA-INDIA COMBAT UNITS IN WWII. AIR FORCES 10th AIR FORCE 3rd Combat Cargo Group 7th Bombardment Group 33rd Fighter Group 80th Fighter Group 311th Fighter Group 341st Bombardment Group 443rd Troop Carrier Group 14th AIR FORCE 68th Composite Wing 69th Composite Wing 312th Fighter Wing COMMANDS XX Bomber Command 58th Bombardment Wing WINGS 58th Bombardment Wing 40th Bombardment Group 444th Bombardment Group 462nd Bombardment Group 468th Bombardment Group 472nd Bombardment Group 68th Composite Wing 23rd Fighter Group 69th Composite Wing 51st Fighter Group 341st Bombardment Group 312TH FIGHTER WING 33rd FighterGroup 81st Fighter Group 311th Fighter Group GROUPS 1st Air Commando Group 5th Fighter Squadron 6th Fighter Squadron 166th Liaison Squadron 319th Troop Carrier Squadron 1st Combat Cargo Group 1st Combat Cargo Squadron 2nd Combat Cargo Squadron 3rd Combat Cargo Squadron 2nd Air Commando Group 1st Fighter Squadron 2nd Fighter Squadron 127th Liaison Squadron 155th Liaison Squadron 156th Liaison Squadron 317th Troop Carrier Squadron 3rd Combat Cargo Group 9th Combat Cargo Squadron 10th Combat Cargo Squadron 11th Combat Cargo Squadron 12th Combat Cargo Squadron 4th Combat Cargo Group 13th Combat Cargo Squadron 14th Combat Cargo Squadron 15th Combat Cargo Squadron 16th Combat Cargo Squadron 7th Bombardment Group 9th Bombardment Squadron 11th Bombardment Squadron 22nd Bombardment Squadron 30th Bombardment Squadron 436th Bombardment Squadron 492nd Bombardment Squadron 493rd Bombardment Squadron 8th Reconnaissance Group 9th Reconnaissance Squadron 20th ReconnaissanceSquadron 24th Reconnaissance Squadron 40th Reconnaissance Squadron 12th Bombardment Group 81st Bombardment Squadron 82nd Bombardment Squadron 83rd Bombardment Squadron 434th Bombardment Squadron 23rd Fighter Group 16th Fighter Squadron 74th Fighter Squadron 75th Fighter Squadron 76th Fighter Squadron 33rd Fighter Group 58th Fighter Squadron 59th Fighter Squadron 60th Fighter Squadron 51st Fighter Group 16th Fighter Squadron 25th Fighter Squadron 26th Fighter Squadron 449th Fighter Squadron 80th Fighter Group 88th Fighter Squadron 89th Fighter Squadron 90th Fighter Squadron 459th Fighter Squadron 308th Bombardment Group 373rd Bombardment Squadron 374th Bombardment Squadron 375th Bombardment Squadron 425th Bombardment Squadron 311th Fighter Group 385th Fighter Squadron 528th Fighter Squadron 529th Fighter Squadron 530th Fighter Squadron 341st Bombardment Group 11th Bombardment Squadron 22nd Bombardment Squadron 490th Bombardment Squadron 491st Bombardment Squadron 402nd Fighter Group 320th Fighter Squadron 442nd Fighter Squadron 539th Fighter Squadron 540th Fighter Squadron 443rd Troop Carrier Group 1st Troop Carrier Squadron 2nd Troop Carrier Squadron 309th Troop Carrier Squadron 310th Troop Carrier Squadron 315th Troop Carrier Squadron 444th Bombardment Group 1st Bombardment Squadron 2nd Bombardment Squadron 309th Bombardment Squadron 310th Bombardment Squadron 462nd Bombardment Group 345th Bombardment Squadron 768th Bombardment Squadron 769th Bombardment Squadron 770th Bombardment Squadron 771st Bombardment Squadron 468th Bombardment Group 512th Bombardment Squadron 792nd Bombardment Squadron 793rd Bombardment Squadron 794th Bombardment Squadron 795th Bombardment Squadron 476th Fighter Group 453rd Fighter Squadron 541st Fighter Squadron 542nd Fighter Squadron 543rd Fighter Squadron Air Corps Base Units 1304th 1328TH 1332ND 1334TH 1337TH 1338TH 1343RD 1345TH 1350TH Air Depot Units 3rd 22nd 26th 47th 48th Depot Repair Sqd. Air Mapping 24th Sqd 82nd Repair Sqdn. Air Service Group 4th Wing 52nd 62nd 124th 125th 126th 129th 301st 338th Air Supply Service 44th Group 305th Group Air Transport Command American Combat Engineers American Field Services Ambulances American Long-Range Penetration Regiment Anti-Aircraft Units 843 AAA Bn. 464th Hq. Btry. Army Engineers 504th 352nd 700th Petroleum Dist. Co. Army Nurse Corps AVIATION ENGINEERING BN BASE SECTIONS, SOS No. 1 (Karachi) SOS No. 2 (Calcutta) SOS Military Police Co. Ordnance Heavy Automotive Maintenance 857th Quartermaster Department 21st Group 41st Quartermaster Truck Co. 472nd 1980th 3721st 3732nd. 3841st 3843rd BRIGADES 5307th 5332nd BURMA ROAD ENGINEERS FIELD ARTILL
 
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S-2    RE:S-2/Heorot Reply Addendum II   10/27/2005 5:17:38 PM
For your further satisfaction- UNITES STATES FORCES U.S. AIR CORPS CHINA-BURMA-INDIA COMBAT UNITS IN WWII. AIR FORCES 10th AIR FORCE 3rd Combat Cargo Group 7th Bombardment Group 33rd Fighter Group 80th Fighter Group 311th Fighter Group 341st Bombardment Group 443rd Troop Carrier Group 14th AIR FORCE 68th Composite Wing 69th Composite Wing 312th Fighter Wing COMMANDS XX Bomber Command 58th Bombardment Wing WINGS 58th Bombardment Wing 40th Bombardment Group 444th Bombardment Group 462nd Bombardment Group 468th Bombardment Group 472nd Bombardment Group 68th Composite Wing 23rd Fighter Group 69th Composite Wing 51st Fighter Group 341st Bombardment Group 312TH FIGHTER WING 33rd FighterGroup 81st Fighter Group 311th Fighter Group GROUPS 1st Air Commando Group 5th Fighter Squadron 6th Fighter Squadron 166th Liaison Squadron 319th Troop Carrier Squadron 1st Combat Cargo Group 1st Combat Cargo Squadron 2nd Combat Cargo Squadron 3rd Combat Cargo Squadron 2nd Air Commando Group 1st Fighter Squadron 2nd Fighter Squadron 127th Liaison Squadron 155th Liaison Squadron 156th Liaison Squadron 317th Troop Carrier Squadron 3rd Combat Cargo Group 9th Combat Cargo Squadron 10th Combat Cargo Squadron 11th Combat Cargo Squadron 12th Combat Cargo Squadron 4th Combat Cargo Group 13th Combat Cargo Squadron 14th Combat Cargo Squadron 15th Combat Cargo Squadron 16th Combat Cargo Squadron 7th Bombardment Group 9th Bombardment Squadron 11th Bombardment Squadron 22nd Bombardment Squadron 30th Bombardment Squadron 436th Bombardment Squadron 492nd Bombardment Squadron 493rd Bombardment Squadron 8th Reconnaissance Group 9th Reconnaissance Squadron 20th ReconnaissanceSquadron 24th Reconnaissance Squadron 40th Reconnaissance Squadron 12th Bombardment Group 81st Bombardment Squadron 82nd Bombardment Squadron 83rd Bombardment Squadron 434th Bombardment Squadron 23rd Fighter Group 16th Fighter Squadron 74th Fighter Squadron 75th Fighter Squadron 76th Fighter Squadron 33rd Fighter Group 58th Fighter Squadron 59th Fighter Squadron 60th Fighter Squadron 51st Fighter Group 16th Fighter Squadron 25th Fighter Squadron 26th Fighter Squadron 449th Fighter Squadron 80th Fighter Group 88th Fighter Squadron 89th Fighter Squadron 90th Fighter Squadron 459th Fighter Squadron 308th Bombardment Group 373rd Bombardment Squadron 374th Bombardment Squadron 375th Bombardment Squadron 425th Bombardment Squadron 311th Fighter Group 385th Fighter Squadron 528th Fighter Squadron 529th Fighter Squadron 530th Fighter Squadron 341st Bombardment Group 11th Bombardment Squadron 22nd Bombardment Squadron 490th Bombardment Squadron 491st Bombardment Squadron 402nd Fighter Group 320th Fighter Squadron 442nd Fighter Squadron 539th Fighter Squadron 540th Fighter Squadron 443rd Troop Carrier Group 1st Troop Carrier Squadron 2nd Troop Carrier Squadron 309th Troop Carrier Squadron 310th Troop Carrier Squadron 315th Troop Carrier Squadron 444th Bombardment Group 1st Bombardment Squadron 2nd Bombardment Squadron 309th Bombardment Squadron 310th Bombardment Squadron 462nd Bombardment Group 345th Bombardment Squadron 768th Bombardment Squadron 769th Bombardment Squadron 770th Bombardment Squadron 771st Bombardment Squadron 468th Bombardment Group 512th Bombardment Squadron 792nd Bombardment Squadron 793rd Bombardment Squadron 794th Bombardment Squadron 795th Bombardment Squadron 476th Fighter Group 453rd Fighter Squadron 541st Fighter Squadron 542nd Fighter Squadron 543rd Fighter Squadron Air Corps Base Units 1304th 1328TH 1332ND 1334TH 1337TH 1338TH 1343RD 1345TH 1350TH Air Depot Units 3rd 22nd 26th 47th 48th Depot Repair Sqd. Air Mapping 24th Sqd 82nd Repair Sqdn. Air Service Group 4th Wing 52nd 62nd 124th 125th 126th 129th 301st 338th Air Supply Service 44th Group 305th Group Air Transport Command American Combat Engineers American Field Services Ambulances American Long-Range Penetration Regiment Anti-Aircraft Units 843 AAA Bn. 464th Hq. Btry. Army Engineers 504th 352nd 700th Petroleum Dist. Co. Army Nurse Corps AVIATION ENGINEERING BN BASE SECTIONS, SOS No. 1 (Karachi) SOS No. 2 (Calcutta) SOS Military Police Co. Ordnance Heavy Automotive Maintenance 857th Quartermaster Department 21st Group 41st Quartermaster Truck Co. 472nd 1980th 3721st 3732nd. 3841st 3843rd BRIGADES 5307th 5332nd BURMA ROAD ENGINEERS FIELD ARTILL
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Once again Let's get it straight - BD/   10/27/2005 5:27:21 PM
AR-I know that-I read my 4 books on the Battle of the Bulge...Though 2 reg of 106th surrendered, they held up the german advance long enough so that elements of 7ad and 1 cc of 9th ad could reposition around st vith, again delaying the germans-and then resulting in the 82nd and 3rd ad moving into position.......ending the realistice chances of success after the first 96 hrs The 28th Id resting after the terrible fighting a month or so earlier had numerous raw troops. They held how long enough to delay the germans capture of Bastogne and thusly giving time for the 101st go reach Bas. in strength Its just s-2 gets so aggitated and pottied mouth....cant resist...... (though I was alluding to something else with the 100/6 div statements-and on a side note, thats also why I alluded that the army was more numerous and necessary in the PTO as it was to large for just 6 div-even 10 or 20 div... SEMPER FI
 
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S-2    RE:Once again Let's get it straight - BD/S-2 Reply   10/27/2005 5:37:40 PM
"Its just s-2 gets so aggitated and pottied mouth....cant resist...... (though I was alluding to something else with the 100/6 div statements-and on a side note, thats also why I alluded that the army was more numerous and necessary in the PTO as it was to large for just 6 div-even 10 or 20 div..." Funny enough, but my "potty mouth often comes after the lack/fact" on so terribly many of your posts. To use good men, disparaged so easily by you UNTRUTHFULLY, to strike back at me, displays the fundamental frivolity of your positions. Truth is, I'm ashamed of my "potty mouth". It seems you may bear the greater shame, though. If you KNEW so much about the Bulge, you wouldn't have said anything in good conscience. If you KNEW so much about the Philippines, you wouldn't have disparaged good men, to include the 4th Marines. Finally, if you KNEW so much about Okinawa, you wouldn't have yapped about it as though it was a Marine mission, with us poor doggies tagging along so we could learn how it's done. As for your allusions, do a better job. None of your still-not clear allusions carried any clarity. Nor do they still.
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:S-2/Heorot Reply Addendum II   10/27/2005 5:45:21 PM
s-2...never said mc was in burma....since india was part of the british empire and it contributed at least the 4th, 5th, and 10th ind. div to the 8A in North Africa, and later the 8th id in Italy, the british were serious about keeping it in the colony, esp after their embarrassment(or arrogance) of loosing hongkong and singapore....plus the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse(?) They did not have alot of combat units in India...the Indian army-17 inf. div(+4 res) and 4 ad(no combat), 5 arm birgades(roughly 3 active) and 1 airborne, bore the brunt of the fighting till 1945...The british, with the exception of those lost in 42 had only 1 div until late 44 in the theater (not mentioning the colony troops) the c-47 was a major player in burma(hence, flying the hump) and thusly all the transport sq. and their support...
 
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S-2    RE:S-2/Heorot Reply Addendum II   10/27/2005 6:01:53 PM
"s-2...never said mc was in burma" I don't recall you saying it either, but (without checking back through the threads)am pretty certain that I did. Not sure how that got into it other than displaying the world-wide committment of Army forces, but Heorot seemed to think I was off the mark, and may have obliquely been trying to come to your defense by discrediting me. My list indicates "lots" of American soldiers were there, though, in a variety of capacities. Again, I mean this-if you know so much about the Bulge, don't troll to get my goat. You only embarass yourself (as my swearing did for me)and disparage the efforts of good men in the process. Very unfair to their memories, and inaccurate, for whatever temporal gain that you may have misperceived in our little tiff. Clearly, that behavior set me off (past tense because I'm going to persevere to clean up my act). I've "ceased firing", and my chambers are clear. My ASP remains stocked, though, and like good U.S. soldiers and marines everywhere, I remain vigilant to our honor.
 
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S-2    RE:S-2/Bunkerdestroyer-Burma   10/27/2005 6:10:53 PM
"2)not to be picky, but hey....the us had little to do in burma-a few small units well trained and nothing in china..." I guess you did say this, though.
 
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bunkerdestroyer    RE:Once again Let's get it straight - BD/S-2 Reply   10/27/2005 6:13:36 PM
s-2...well, no it doesnt bother me-unless there is a personal connection(as in somalia with me and the bataan death march(a friend)-most areas are open for sparing-ie 'your momma jokes' some laugh at them and some find them disrespectful..You never heard me say the army was a bunch of idiots, or the 106th were a bunch of cowards-that is a different level saying they got whooped is not disrespectful-unless you were there or had a friend or a relative that was there. ...you and I will disagree about okinawa... about the bulge..you have your opinion and I have mine-some harsh..minus the 'sparing,' the fact remains, some units did good at the bulge and some did poorly...pride aside-and its hard to point those out when it illicits such strong feelings...(like telling someone their breath stinks).... but the end result was that the army pulled it together and with the exception of the first 96 hrs, and was not in any danger of loosing...and eisenhower and patton thought that it was indeed fortunate so as to draw large german forces out and destroy them enmasse...... and ps...none were 'untruths' per se. The 106th, weither weak or not was beaten badly and despite holding the germans for 48+ hrs, surrendered enmasse-the largest surrender of us forces since the phillipeans....weither that stirs up emotion for you..thats your baggage-if however, you have a personal connection, say you were there, a friend, relative, etc, then I apoligize and that subject is now neutral I have not studied the phillipeans that much, so that is why I have not been specific or detailed. I have studied the ETO and I can speak with detail and 'clarity' People respond in diff. ways-example...In somolia, part of MY bn was staying at the olympic hotel in the stadium perimeter...I was not present(I was in the stadium)when the following happened...Apparently, a 2 veh humvee patrol was either leaving or comming back....-hmg-1 50 cal and the other a saw.....apparently, a crowd devolped and started throwing rocks(during our stay, several marines were hurt this way...one of the men in my squad almost lost his eye to the bastards)-then, one of the gunners said he saw a pistol being pointed and he unloaded with his 50. Then the co on duty in the hotel rushed to the window and opened fired-I'm sure with out clear targets and responding to fire and seeing to veh. surrounded....After a minute or so, it was over... Months later, a couple of rookies were bragging about how they "mowed the crowd down, and they were draggin dozens away"....I dont know all the facts, but I was disgusted at their ridicule of the slaughter of civilians....I strongly believe that unit stepped on its crank... That is tender to me, but I, personally would not be bothered by an army dawg talking trash or rubbing it in that 'professional marines' probably screwed up and stepped on the cranks..that is part of the debate game however...the death of lcpl anthony botello-first marine kia and often unrecognized, IS a tender spot and off limits. so you see s-2, its how you play the game....I have no problem critisizing(sp) army or marines. reality is reality-if an army or a marine unit got wacked, then they got wacked-service pride aside...just as long as it does not get personal If you do, thats your issue.... by the way SEMPER FI
 
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S-2    RE:Once again Let's get it straight - BD/S-2 Reply   10/27/2005 7:09:24 PM
The father of my best friend's girlfriend was a 2LT in the 424th Inf. Regt, 106th I.D. and was captured. Read closely. The 106th I.D. was cut off by German forces moving through a Cavalry Group to their north. None of my readings suggested that any troops other than CSS doggies did anything to embarass themselves between St. Vith and the Schnee Eifel. They fought, and fought some more, and then tried to exfiltrate west, where they were cut up. Many continued to fight, including a Lt. who carried on a very private, lonely war until his demise. Marines would have done the exact same thing. Remember Wake Island? Surrendering just isn't the same as cuttin' and runnin'. Still, I'm having a hard time remembering in W.W.II when marine forces faced the equivalent of two Panzerarmees attacking to their immediate flanks while faced with a Volksgrenadier div to their front. Those CSS units didn't run far. That was stopped at St. Vith. Okinawa- Disagree all you want. You're not correct, but have you studied it yet, as you indicated you would? If so, you'd bite the bullet a bit. Take a look at Army casualties there before deciding, if you're interested in the truth. Feel free to check the O.B. Our blood was all over that ground, and nobody ran. As for you and Somalia, those are your memories and I'm sorry for your friend. I'm sure he was an excellent marine, clearly well remembered by his brothers-as it should be. Getting whacked was never what this is about. Two sides are fighting, that's why it's war. Things happen. You've, however, chose to say repeatedly how "poorly" our guys do, and how we've repeatedly dishonored ourselves compared to the Corps stellar record. Amazing, though, how your capitulations are epic battles of glory, and ours disgraceful. I don't like it. It's an inaccurate and shameful perversion of the truth. I haven't attacked the Corps. Never would. You'd do well to quit attacking the U.S. Army, especially when you lack the facts. Beside, what's the point. You might be the few, and Marine, but I can't imagine much pride in disparaging your Army brothers. Oh well, enough. It's your business what you do with these thoughts. GarryOwen.
 
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