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Subject: Talley M72E8/M72E10 LAW Versus the Common Rifle Grenade
EKG    5/19/2006 12:25:10 AM
When I first saw that improved versions of the LAW were being made I was excited. Then I got to thinking... The LAW probably has about the same penetration through RHA as an RPG, ~12 inches. However, the venerable Energa 75 rifle grenade has penetration of ~15 inches. Effective ranges of both are around 200 meters, though realistically the Energa has a direct fire range of more like 150 meters. So, is the 50 meter more range of the LAW worth the 5.5 (versus approx 2 pound or less Energa) pound weight, and the over 2 foot closed length (versus about a foot for the Energa)? When you look at it the rifle grenade is generally less bulky as well, and doesn't leave a firing signature like I assume the LAW does. The M72E8 would leave less signature then the regular M72, but it would also weigh more. The M72E10 might... might... be better in the anti-personnel role, but then again a RG similar in size and weight to the Energa would be absolutely devastating at close range if made into a pure fragmentation type. I don't believe the Energa is a bullet pass through type RG, but with modern technology this could be solved as well. What do you think? Personally I think its just to compensate for the lack of the 5.56's power, which correspondingly reduces rifle grenade range.
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Horsesoldier    RE:Yimmy   5/25/2006 2:50:03 PM
There may be better informed guys out there on Rhodesia -- my library on that topic tends to grow slowly since a lot of what was written about the war was published in relatively small runs in the 1980s in South Africa and prices, used, can be painful . . . The previously mentioned Fireforce by Chris Cox (actual spelling ends with a "cks" rather than an "x" but I'm pretty sure Strat Page won't stand for such flagrantly profane speech) is very good. It's an autobiographical account of service in 3 Commando, the Rhodesian Light Infantry, during the late seventies. Very interesting read and one that is back in print, I think, so a copy won't cost an arm and a leg. Top Secret War, also previously mentioned, is a great read about the Selous Scouts, but I paid over $100 USD for my copy. It might be more accessible over there across the water (a friend from the UK suggested it to me originally, and I seem to recall he paid a rather more acceptably modest amount for his copy). I'd read Fireforce or otherwise get spun up a bit on the big picture history of the Rhodesian War, since TSW is written with an assumption that you know who the movers and shakers on both sides of the conflict are and such. Those are the only two Rhodesia books currently in my library that I've found time to read thus far, with the exception of Robin Moore's The White Tribe which was quite awful. He lived in Rhodesia during the late seventies, and has written some notable books (The Green Berets, The French Connection) but this particular offering comes across as a bizarrely paranoid egotistical self-love fest. (He seems to think he could have singlehandedly saved Rhodesia via a good PR campaign, but that the CIA targetted him to prevent this . . .). Hope that helps. It's a quite fascinating bit of military history that offers some timeless sort of lessons for light infantry and counter-insurgency, I think.
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Professor Fickle    RE:Talley M72E8/M72E10 LAW Versus the Common Rifle Grenade   6/28/2006 8:34:50 PM
here is more on the M100 Grenade Rifle Entry Munition (GREM) The Door Busting Rifle Grenade June 28, 2006: One of the most popular, and widely used infantry weapons in Iraq, gets hardly any attention at all. This is the M100 Grenade Rifle Entry Munition (GREM). This is a rifle grenade, fired from the barrel of an M-16 or M-4, to knock down a door with the same efficiency as battering rams. GREM has a one foot rod in front, giving the proper stand-off for the explosive charge to literally "punch" the door down. Troops like GREM because it's light, reliable and almost always takes down the door it is aimed at, even reinforced metal ones. Thus a soldier can aim GREM at a door at the end of a corridor, without getting close enough to get hit by enemy fire. GREM isn't sexy as weapons go, but given the large number of "no-knock" raids, and urban combat, in Iraq, it is a heavily used one. Work is under way to create a 40mm version of GREM, that can be fired from a 40mm grenade launcher.
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Professor Fickle    Some more info!   11/23/2006 5:58:41 PM

1***Launch velocity is 85m/s with a 7.62x51mm weapon, 65m/s with a 5.56x45mm. Range is 400m with a 7.62x51mm and 300m with 5.56mm. Each grenade weighs 320gm (11¼oz). Recoil for a 5.56mm is < 45J and < 60J for 7.62mm.

2***Alongside the designs suggested above a number of large-caliber rifle grenades similar to the Energa and Norinco Type-67 should be made available. These grenades typically are 70mm to 75mm in caliber and weigh between 1½ and 1¾ lbs. Fired by a rifle round they have a launch velocity of 42-75m/s, a direct fire range of up to 75-100m and a high trajectory range exceeding 250m. Penetration for the South African copy of the Energa is given as 375mm of RHA, nearly 15". The Rhodesians often issued these to the point man of a patrol, giving him RPG level firepower during an encounter without the back-blast and added weight of a launcher.
        Such grenades have obvious applications for anti-tank ambushes in urban terrain where engagement range is often less than 100m. Destructive capability is similar to an M72 but the grenades are lighter and can be launched without back-blast or from confined spaces.

3***Another form of Rifle grenade that should see wider use is the Israeli IMI ARG/AP-50. This is a form of "rifle grenade" that does not leave the muzzle but instead projects a cloud of flechettes. These have proved very useful for firing through chain-link fences erected to protect from RPGs. The 53mm calibre round weighs 640gms and fires 160 flechettes in a 10° arc with a range of 50m. Such a weapon would be useful for any situation where the enemy was likely to be encountered at close range. Carlton Meyer coined the phrase "Rifle-Claymore" for a weapon of this type.

Rifle granades should complement the Genade louncher not replace it!

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Professor Fickle       12/27/2006 10:00:52 PM

If i were a militia and likely to see urban insurgency combat with armor

=70mm Rifle grenade!


Best bang for buck.

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Professor Fickle    Explosive breaching   6/18/2007 12:37:42 AM

>>      -but I did not hear what kinda door it will defeat-what about those metal gate doors around a walled house/building that sometimes are hard to get open/require ramming? I wonder if this would be able to blow them open, or just a hole in it?       <<

Explosive breaching is a bit of a trick under controlled circumstances (i.e. different charges are better/worse for different doors or wall materials), which leaves me a bit skeptical of a one-size fits all approach you shoot from a hundred feet away. There are probably targets it is ideal for, and those that it is less than ideal for, and probably a pretty good chance that it is overkill for some with the potential of producing casualties on the other side of the breach (good if they're combatants, bad if they're women and kids, etc.).

no no no, JUST adjust the length of the probe on the front of the HE Charge.  The shorter the probe, the more it will blast threw. that is a easer solution
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