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Subject: Anti-Torpedo CIWS
Iano_returns    1/25/2006 11:07:24 AM
There are many hark-kill defences against incoming missiles, Sea RAM type rocketry CIWSs, Goalkeeper type gunnery CIWSs, point air defence missiles, but none to protect ships from incoming torpedoes.

It surely would be possible to mount a weapon very like an antisubmarine mortar, Hedgehog rocket, or depth charge thrower, to hurl small charges out in the direction of the torpedoes approach, at the right time so that the sinking rate of the charge meets the torpedo at its depth and approach speed.

It could be automated and computed by the ships sonar systems. Only a small explosion would be required to either destroy the torpedo or cause it to lose acquisition in the "thermals" or "ensonified area".


 
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Weasel    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/25/2006 11:31:29 AM
Well, Just as with production you should use what you have to make the smallest and most efficient system. So when you design a plant you use gravity (its free). So in your anti torpedo system you should look at using water, because its free too. That means creating a system that utilizes shock waves to defeat an underwater threat. Pretty simple to do in theory. If you want to use your CIWS gun (because it is something you already have), then just go with a super cavitating round. Your problem in doing that is trying to aim the weapon. What are you going to use to target it? My guess would be that once you start plugging away with super cav rounds at wotever 1000 rnd per minute rate that takes your fancy, it will render sonar ineffective. So you'll be limited to bursts, then wait and see, then burst again, then wait and see, etc, etc. Creating an active defense against torpedos and mines is a very wise way to go.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/25/2006 11:38:30 AM
I thought Stingray was capable of targetting other torps?
 
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Yimmy    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/25/2006 11:38:30 AM
I thought Stingray was capable of targetting other torps?
 
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Iano_returns    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/25/2006 1:03:23 PM
Don't know if it is, maybe. Seems pretty wasteful, torp for a torp... Although much less wasteful than losing your ship!
 
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Yimmy    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/25/2006 1:05:02 PM
Well yeah exactly! And Stingray only has a range of something like 12km's, so it isn't much use as an offensive weapon.
 
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Iano_returns    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/25/2006 1:39:15 PM
Do ships ever use their torp tubes as offensive weapons? Would a T23 say fire from the tubes over getting the helicopter airborne? Anybody know whats the preferred method (within the Sting Rays range anyhow)?
 
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fitz    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 12:21:41 AM
Systems such as what you describe have been in development almost constantly since 1945 with virtually nothing to show for it. The problems are immense.
 
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Francois    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 1:09:20 AM
Quotation : "The anti-torpedo "hard-kill" weapon based on a light weight torpedo-like effector is nowadays elected as the most viable and credible solution". M.S., Eurotorp, Weapons and Countermeasures, UDT Europe 2004.
 
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Iano_returns    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 6:37:19 AM
torpedo-like-effector francois? You mean a counter-torpedo? Something like Skval (not sure about the spelling but the very fast Russky one)? How difficult can it be to make this antitorpedo CIWS? Your sonar can tell the position, depth, speed and course of the torpedo. You know the sink rate of your depth charge, hence you know the time it takes to get to the torps depth. In that time how far ahead of where it is, will the torp have travelled? And the spot above that point, is where you throw/mortar/rocket the charge to on the waters surface...
 
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Francois    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 8:19:15 AM
I am stepping in dangerous field but... No, no skhvall nor hypercavitating. Only very fast, very agile with a very high level sensor suite torpedo to ensure the highest level of hard kill propability. That is what the slide showed anyway. Cant tell you more.
 
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fitz    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 8:25:41 AM
"How difficult can it be to make this antitorpedo CIWS? Your sonar can tell the position, depth, speed and course of the torpedo. You know the sink rate of your depth charge, hence you know the time it takes to get to the torps depth. In that time how far ahead of where it is, will the torp have travelled? And the spot above that point, is where you throw/mortar/rocket the charge to on the waters surface..." And how many dozens, if not hundreds of false alarms are going to be generated. And how precise is that sonar data going to be, keeping in mind the huge number of false alarms? How much ammunition are you going to have to carry for this anti-torpedo weapon. I could name, probably 9-10 firm programs for anti-torpedo hard-kill defenses that have been initiated in the west since 1945. Every single one of them failed for those reasons. Every one. Recall that during the Falkland Islands conflict the Royal Navy, the pre-eminent ASW force in the world at the time, expended something like 250 rather spendy ASW torpedo's and an equal number of depth charges and never even came close to hitting a single submarine. Not once. Do you really think its going to be that easy to hit a torpedo?!?!?!
 
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Yimmy    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 11:20:45 AM
"Recall that during the Falkland Islands conflict the Royal Navy, the pre-eminent ASW force in the world at the time, expended something like 250 rather spendy ASW torpedo's and an equal number of depth charges and never even came close to hitting a single submarine." I think a certain (ex) Argentinian submarine would argue that.
 
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Francois    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 8:28:34 PM
fitz :Recall that during the Falkland Islands conflict the Royal Navy, the pre-eminent ASW force in the world at the time, expended something like 250 rather spendy ASW torpedo's and an equal number of depth charges and never even came close to hitting a single submarine. Well, if I can count well, one was caught on surface and desabled by a Lynx in Georgia isl., and the other was hidding between two rocks with its CCS not functioning per lack of maintainance, so couldn't launch. What is your point? What is said, regarding HK torps, is that, so far, the most promising way is there. And I was quoting ppl working on the subject, not from my mind!
 
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fitz    RE:Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 8:36:52 PM
"I think a certain (ex) Argentinian submarine would argue that." Really? I hate to stray off-topic but for clarification... "Teh magnitude of the British ASW helplessness in the Falkland's conflict is best illustrated by one of the final observations related to me by the HDW chief combat systems engineer. Having learned first-hand of the futile torpedo attacks, and having also been aware of the massive expenditure of ASW ordnance by the British, he asked the captain of the San Luis what it was like to have been under counterattack by the British after his abortive torpedo attacks. "Attakc?", came the reply. "There was no effective counterattack. I don't think they knew were were there until they heard our torpedo's in the running, and then the erratic nature of those weapons behavior apparently prevented them from tracing the torpedoes back to our position. We were NEVER under direct attack." Captain Charles H Wilbur, USN(R), USNI Proceedings March 1996
 
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gf0012-aust    Anti-Torpedo CIWS   1/26/2006 8:57:12 PM
"What is said, regarding HK torps, is that, so far, the most promising way is there. And I was quoting ppl working on the subject, not from my mind! " the last UDT I attended had a number of sessions on emerging counter torpedo systems. Out of the 7 systems discussed, only one has appeared in the public domain. The data shown for HK torpedo systems was rather impressive - and it certainly wasn't "pie in the sky" stuff. There are certainly solutions able to have greater success in killing an incoming torpedo - the principle issue is what developments take place with new torpedo technologies. The emerging technologies for torpedoes are going to make life interesting for any vessel. At the risk of generalising, at the skimmer level I'd rather have to deal with a supersonic cruise missile than have to deal with some of the new torpedo solutions.
 
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