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Subject: How will US navy protect against hi-speed missiles like Sunburn
reefdiver    2/16/2005 6:23:46 PM
The 3M-82 Moskit "Sunburn" does mach 2.1 and has a complex flight pattern. I assume there are other similar class anti-ship missiles with even faster ones on the way. Can the US Navy really defend against such fast and low flying missiles - and how (other than stay out of range)?
 
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elcid    RE:How will US navy protect against hi-speed missiles like Sunburn   2/16/2005 6:26:24 PM
This is not a new threat. We faced Mach 6 ASCMs decades ago. Our systems are designed for that.
 
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fitz    It's called Aegis...   2/16/2005 6:44:42 PM
...and it does the job quite nicely. Besides, the "Sunburn threat" is about as real as the "Bomber Gap" of 40 years ago.
 
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reefdiver    Aegis... against Sunburn   2/16/2005 10:28:16 PM
So does Aegis easily detect surface skimming missiles, including over the horizon, or does it rely on E-2C's providing "look down" radar to assist in the information network? Just how fast can Aegis respond? Also, I know the Navy purchased a few Sunburns for target drones. Has anyone heard of the result of tests with these drones against Aegis? If so were they tested in sea skimming mode somewhat targeting the vessels or just to simulate fast flying aircraft?
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/17/2005 12:11:32 PM
I have read the tests went well, but other than 3rd hand info you'll hear nothing.
 
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EW3    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/17/2005 1:54:42 PM
There are two modes of operation. Peacetime cruising and wartime cruising. If we're in danger of getting a sunburn, we'll be on hair trigger response, and have all our defenses deployed. That means Hawkeyes, and I suspect assistance from the USAF AWACs. Also the carrier and ships will deploy their helicopters for patrol. A good surface search radar on a helicopter is a great defense. If something trips the mechanism, turn your stern to the target, fire off chaffe and IR decoys, light off the ECM, and start firing CIWS, particularly the RIM-116 RAM. Also let go whatother secret ECM pods we have. Odds are it won't get through. A stern hit with a 750lb warhead above the waterline is not going to sink a ship. From that direction it has to penetrate more bulkheads which will reduce the effects of the blast quickly.
 
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fitz    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/17/2005 6:35:04 PM
I can't emphasize enough how Aegis essentially solved the AAW problem that had plagued the USN since 1944. Practice shots against high-performance threats, including supersonic anti-ship missiles is a matter of routine. Nobody in the surface navy seems to be losing sleep over Sunburn. Too many people reading too much crap on the internet is the real threat.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/17/2005 7:50:04 PM
"Nobody in the surface navy seems to be losing sleep over Sunburn. Too many people reading too much crap on the internet is the real threat." I almost give myself heartburn laughing when I see some of the posts made about how the Brahmos is the first mach 3 plus AShM AShCM in the world, or that Sunburn is the new CVN killer. Too many kids reading too many patriotic newspapers - and none of them even bothering to look at the history of the missiles that they think are the new holy grails of anti-shipping solutions. Apparently the Yakhont and P-800 never existed and weren't viable until they were fitted with non-Sat guidance etc..... eyes rolling back feverishly icon
 
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reefdiver    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/17/2005 11:55:23 PM
Hey, thanks guys for the info. I guess my main questions about this was how well the Ageis handled low flying, sea skimming missiles. I should have realized they'd would deal with this as it would appear to be their primary threat.
 
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EW3    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 12:14:17 AM
If I might suggest, separate the Aegis from the AN/SPY-1 radar. That particular radar while probably the best in the world right now, cannot see a sea skimmer cruise missile. The surface serach radar does it better. The Aegis system which takes in a bunch of inputs from the SPY-1, surface search (most important in this case), from Hawkeyes, from AWACS, from subs, from other ships, now that is a different game. The Aegis, because it uses all these resources is a great system.
 
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USN-MID    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 12:16:58 AM
Right, AEGIS is more than the SPY-1 array...even more so with direct datalinking with AWACS and many other "eyes"...it's now a BATTLE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 3:40:00 AM
If you really want to extrapolate things to the proposed conclusion - it's ForceNET that will be making the sea change (no pun intended) SLUAV's as well as skimmer launched versions enable the lookdown capability to be more often realised cheaper than AWACs etc (in some ranges)
 
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Galderio    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 10:03:40 AM
Everything depends of the number of incoming missiles, Ofcourse they can defeat some supersonic missiles, but in a realistic scenario the enemy would launch a saturation atack and there will be a number of missiles that you can intercept really. The question is how many missiles you an destroy in a short period of time. Shoot twenty missiles and your Carrier is dead!
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 10:11:30 AM
"Shoot twenty missiles and your Carrier is dead!" I don't think so. The CSF response is a little better than that. If you consider the USN was training against regiments launching multiples of supersonics, then 20 is not exactly going to tax the fleet.
 
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reefdiver    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 2:09:48 PM
Do the carrier's surrounding escorts make it more difficult for the carrier to be hit simply by virture of being in the line of fire (ignoring that the Aegis system will take action against the missile), or can a modern cruise missile avoid these targets and acquire a specific target like a carrier?
 
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EW3    RE:Aegis... against Sunburn   2/18/2005 3:41:29 PM
Not really. The escorts are pretty spread out and finding a gap is pretty easy. However, as the cruise missile passes by a destroyer it makes a juicey target. The ESSM flies at mach 4+ and can maneuver at 50Gs. I suspect that as the AIM-9X gets produced it will be used in the RAM CIWS. It has the benefit of LOAL so you can get it out in the path of inbound missiles then lock on. Also several types of helos are available to track missiles, and use countermeasures to distract them from the carrier.
 
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