Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs.

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elcid RE:Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs. 12/29/2004 8:21:40 AM

Oddly, Nomad Soul has it perfectly backwards. Historically, PLA had significant moral advantages over its enemies (KMT and IJA)because it INFORMED its soldiers. Similarly, the Chinese People's Volunteer Army of Korea was well motivated, and its success in 1950 was based on a near total superiority of information and morale, offsetting a profound disadvantage in terms of equipment. [A division had one battalion of 3 inch Japanese guns, for example - paltry even by WWI standards]. And "truth" often depends on one's point of view. Most people are somewhat nationalistic, and unable to admit any points about the other side. Thus, when I say the PRC claim to the South China Sea islands is impressive, it rarely impresses Americans. But tell the same thing to PLA soldiers, they can believe the truth and embrace it emotionally.

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NomadSoul RE:Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs. 12/29/2004 9:37:37 AM

Korean War was a stalmate for both sides, never a victory for anyone.

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elcid RE:Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs. 12/30/2004 6:09:16 AM

Victory is in the eye of the beholder. But defeat is plain for all to see. The defeat of the US Eighth Army at the hands of the Chinese People's Volunteer Army of Korea in November, 1950 forced (in the words of the official US Army historian of the war) "the longest retreat in US military history." And, he says, "Only such a retreat could have preserved that army, or its cause." While the war indeed ended with lines very near where they had begun, they were in fact NOWHERE NEAR CHINA, which is where the CPVAK had begun. China won a strategic victory in the sense that mattered to China - don't put a major US army near its industrial heartland. It had warned us in every way possible - and we did not listen. I do not think China would have fought had we stopped moving North, threatening Manchuria. It does not matter that you still are not listening. China "won" what mattered to China - no US army near Manchuria. And it won by one of the most decisive offensives in history. It should be noted it won with infantry against a modern, mechanized army, achieving rates of advance equalled only by armored thrusts, and wiping out units as large as a division. If you are not impressed, you are wilfully nationalistic and partisan.

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elcid RE:Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs. 12/30/2004 6:12:21 AM

I should have added that the CPVAK was also outnumbered when it launched its successful offensive. This is not well appreciated because war statistics usually lump all the later campaigns in. But the PLA was effective because of almost total information superiority, not because of mass or equipment. It also had numbers of combat veterans, competant in basics, while we had numbers of national guardsmen. But if a US army with as little equipment ever beats a bigger army with much better gear, you would be crowing about it.

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stratego RE:Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs. 12/30/2004 10:02:00 PM

The Chinese rout of the Eighth Army (and push-back of the Marines) was hugely significant, as you say. In addition Communist China was a new nation (formed 1949) with a 1-1/2 century history of weakness and humiliation at the hands of the West. The propaganda value was inestimable. It fulfilled, emotionally a parallel function to the Soviet victory over the Nazis (though obviously much smaller). Undoubtably, it has supplied significant "capital" in the exploitation of the Chinese people by their ruthless Communist government. The Chinese victory was due to a number of factors, including covertly moving large masses of troops, machine guns and (I think)artillery through the central mountain range, deemed "impenetrable" by the US military. Reminescent of the impenetrable Ardennes forest through which the Germans simply drove their tanks to defeat the French in WWII (ie, 1940, a battle some SP posters never heard of. This was years before the Bttle of the Bulge.) Via these mountains, the Chinese got beside and behind the US troops, and panicked them. To avoid detection, the Chinese moved their soldiers and equipment each night, hid during the day. One interesting fact was that US reconnaisance planes saw numerous wheel tracks left in the snow by their operations. However, these observations were effectively ignored by hte analytical part of the intelligence. I wonder if these people were actually traitors. I am suspicious of things that stupid.

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elcid RE:Why I call PLA foot soldier ORCs. 12/31/2004 6:14:43 AM

The real American stupidity in Korea of 1950 was the personality of the commander. Mac had a long standing aversion to actually taking a look for himself - he never one time set foot on Bataan - and was unaware that at one point his two corps - nominally 110,000 men - were contained by a single brigade with about 2,000 effectives. [Japan wisely continued its offensive southward, withdrawing the two divisions that had invaded Luzon for ops in Indonesia. Waiting allowed Mac's troops to all - 100% - catch both malaria and dengue fever - and grow weak. They used the time to move in an artillery division - including superheavy guns never used anywhere else in anger.] Anyway, Mac surrounded himself with psychophants, and he didn't suffer people who contradicted what he already knew, whatever the pictures might show. Don't blame the intel guys - although they did get it pretty wrong. The US Army has a saying, among professionals: "There are no bad soldiers. Just bad commanders."

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