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Subject: Japan greenlights 22DDH, a real light aircraft carrier(JMSDF insists it's just a destroyer)
SlowMan    9/1/2009 2:50:07 AM
< link >

Japanese DoD has given the green light to 22DDH today, the follow-up to Hyuga-class. 22DDH is 37% larger than Hyuga and displaces 19,500 ton empty, loaded displacement unknown(Asian navies always disclose empty displacement instead of loaded or full displacement)


A comparison between 16DDH(Hyuga) and 22DDH.
 
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SlowMan       9/1/2009 9:35:17 AM
This is a good news for Lockheed Martin, since JMSDF would need around 80 F-35Bs to field its two approved carriers, which are around 265 m long and are only 70 m shorter than a Nimitz-class carrier.
 
This would somewhat offset the loss from a possible British pull out of F-35B program.
 
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SlowMan       10/23/2009 3:59:49 PM


Background : 22DDH
Foreground : Hyuga
 
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sentinel28a       10/24/2009 3:26:42 AM
Not exactly news, Slow.  SP had an article on this with the same graphics a month ago.
 
I did some looking around about a British pullout on the F-35.  The only thing I could find were links from 2006.  Both the MoD and the RAF confirmed an order for three F-35s for flight testing back in March of this year, though.  The new Queen Elizabeth class can't operate conventional fighters like the Rafale or Typhoon without a massive redesign, which, like the Japanese, pretty much limit it to either using F-35s, or much older Sea Harriers.  In any case, it doesn't look like the Brits are planning to pull out of the JSF program unless, of course, it gets cancelled.
 
 
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usajoe1       10/24/2009 3:33:22 AM
I did some looking around about a British pullout on the F-35.  The only thing I could find were links from 2006.  Both the MoD and the RAF confirmed an order for three F-35s for flight testing back in March of this year, though.  The new Queen Elizabeth class can't operate conventional fighters like the Rafale or Typhoon without a massive redesign, which, like the Japanese, pretty much limit it to either using F-35s, or much older Sea Harriers.  In any case, it doesn't look like the Brits are planning to pull out of the JSF program unless, of course, it gets cancelled.
 
Most likely the Brits are going to cancel one if not both of their new carriers when the defense review is done next year. This means that there might be a chance that they do pull out of the deal.
 
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Slim Pickinz       10/24/2009 7:50:32 PM

I did some looking around about a British pullout on the F-35.  The only thing I could find were links from 2006.  Both the MoD and the RAF confirmed an order for three F-35s for flight testing back in March of this year, though.  The new Queen Elizabeth class can't operate conventional fighters like the Rafale or Typhoon without a massive redesign, which, like the Japanese, pretty much limit it to either using F-35s, or much older Sea Harriers.  In any case, it doesn't look like the Brits are planning to pull out of the JSF program unless, of course, it gets cancelled.
 

Most likely the Brits are going to cancel one if not both of their new carriers when the defense review is done next year. This means that there might be a chance that they do pull out of the deal.



I think more likely they are just going to chop 1 or 2 at the most of their new SSBN class instead. Britain is far too committed with the F-35 program to back out now.
 
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StevoJH       10/24/2009 11:10:48 PM

I did some looking around about a British pullout on the F-35.  The only thing I could find were links from 2006.  Both the MoD and the RAF confirmed an order for three F-35s for flight testing back in March of this year, though.  The new Queen Elizabeth class can't operate conventional fighters like the Rafale or Typhoon without a massive redesign, which, like the Japanese, pretty much limit it to either using F-35s, or much older Sea Harriers.  In any case, it doesn't look like the Brits are planning to pull out of the JSF program unless, of course, it gets cancelled.
 

Most likely the Brits are going to cancel one if not both of their new carriers when the defense review is done next year. This means that there might be a chance that they do pull out of the deal.


An article was just posted that the carriers are too far gone to cancel now, but the initial order of F-35 will only be 50 aircraft for a single airgroup. It said the second carrier will be used as an LPH, but i'm guessing they will just have two undersized airgroups, to be built up to strength as more money becomes available.
 
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SlowMan       10/25/2009 8:24:49 AM
Yes, British F-35B order has been cut from 138 to 50.
 
Not Lockheed Martin and US DoDO must find a buyer for 88 F-35Bs that Brits chose not to buy due to "out of control" cost.
 
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SlowMan       10/27/2009 11:29:08 PM
 
DDH 144 Kurama, the flagship of JMSDF's 2nd escort fleet has been busted in a collision with a 7,400 ton Korean container ship at Kanmon Bridge. Japan needs to accelerate 22DDH program to make up for Kurama's loss.
 
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sentinel28a       10/27/2009 11:38:16 PM
The Kurama hasn't been sunk, for heaven's sake.  Heavy damage to her bow, but she's still afloat and moving under her own power. 
 
A year in a shipyard at the most and she'll be back in action--not a permanent loss.
 
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maruben       10/27/2009 11:43:37 PM

The Kurama hasn't been sunk, for heaven's sake.  Heavy damage to her bow, but she's still afloat and moving under her own power. 

 

A year in a shipyard at the most and she'll be back in action--not a permanent loss.


Kurama collided with South Korean container ship "Karina Star" in the Kanmon-strait around 8:00 pm October 27th, 2009. One crew member was injured in this accident, and this container ship damaged the bow of the warship, and Kurama got fire, but it was able to extinguish the fire 10 hours and a half later. Further, in the "Karina Star" there were no injured persons.

Picture

ht*p://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20091028-00000530-san-soci.view-000
 
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Hamilcar       10/27/2009 11:44:31 PM


 

DDH 144 Kurama, the flagship of JMSDF's 2nd escort fleet has been busted in a collision with a 7,400 ton Korean container ship at Kanmon Bridge. Japan needs to accelerate 22DDH program to make up for Kurama's loss.

 
 
Japan warship collides with commercial vessel

By MARI YAMAGUCHI (AP) ? 14 hours ago

TOKYO — A Japanese navy destroyer has collided with a commercial vessel off southern Japan, starting fires on both ships and injuring one crew member, defense officials said Tuesday.

The destroyer JS Kurama collided with the South Korean container ship Carina Star on Tuesday night in the Kanmon Strait near the southern main island of Kyushu and both were engulfed in flames, a defense ministry spokesman said on condition of anonymity, citing protocol.

One Kurama crew member was slightly injured, the official said.

Public broadcaster NHK said none of the South Korean ship's crew members were injured. It also said the Japanese ship's bow was damaged.

TV footage showed orange flames rising up from the vessels in the dark. The collision site is about 530 miles (850 kilometers) southwest of Tokyo, between Kyusu and the western end of the Honshu main island.

The Kurama was on its way to its home port of Sasebo on Kyushu after serving as the flagship for the country's triennial fleet review Sunday at the port of Yokosuka.

Last year, a collision between a destroyer and a tuna trawler off the coast of Chiba, near Tokyo, left two fishermen dead. That accident triggered an uproar in Japan, where many people harbor pacifist sentiments and remain sensitive to anything related to the military.

Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa quickly held a news conference and apologized for the accident.

"We deeply apologize to the people for causing concerns," he said. "We will quickly find out what caused the accident."

Kitazawa said the government has set up a taskforce to investigate the collision.

 
============================================
 
It was a repairable collision, that did not threaten loss of vessel.
 
There is a lot of misrepresentation of fact and outright fantasy by a poster here. 
 
Explanation please.
 
 Why present an wildly inaccurate and slanted representation of the facts?
 

 
 
 
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SlowMan       10/28/2009 12:01:21 AM
@ sentinel28a

> The Kurama hasn't been sunk

I never said it went down, but it was close since the ammunition storage almost caught fire.

> A year in a shipyard at the most and she'll be back in action--not a permanent loss.

Why repair it when it's reaching the end of its 30=year life soon?

@ Hamilcar

>  It was a repairable collision, that did not threaten loss of vessel.

Well, Kurama could be decommissioned while sitting on the repair dock. Why repair a ship that's so close to decomissioning anyway?

> Why present an wildly inaccurate and slanted representation of the facts?

I know facts that you don't. 
 
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Hamilcar       10/28/2009 12:14:22 AM

@ sentinel28a



> The Kurama hasn't been sunk



I never said it went down, but it was close since the ammunition storage almost caught fire.



> A year in a shipyard at the most and she'll be back in action--not a permanent loss.



Why repair it when it's reaching the end of its 30=year life soon?



@ Hamilcar



>  It was a repairable collision, that did not threaten loss of vessel.



Well, Kurama could be decommissioned while sitting on the repair dock. Why repair a ship that's so close to decomissioning anyway?



> Why present an wildly inaccurate and slanted representation of the facts?



I know facts that you don't. 

The claim must be proved. From what invalid and factually erroneous claims I read you post, elsewhere, I must insist that you prove that claim. What verifiable facts do you possess, that indicate the vessel will be scrapped?
 
I want sources for your claims. 
   
 
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maruben    According to our expert the Japanese press (Kyodo News) is lying   10/28/2009 9:24:13 AM

MSDF warship collides with S. Korean freighter

 

Kyodo News

The Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer Kurama collided with a South Korean cargo vessel in the Kammon Strait in Fukuoka Prefecture at around 8 p.m. Tuesday, causing a fire on the warship, the Defense Ministry said.

Three crew members of the 5,200-ton Kurama sustained minor burns and light injuries, while no one on the freighter was hurt, the ministry said.

No details about the fire were immediately available, but footage on NHK TV showed flames rising from the bow, which appeared to have suffered significant damage.

According to the ministry, the Kurama's bow houses a paint storage locker.

Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa told a hastily arranged news conference that the Kurama crew was scrambling to contain the fire.

The incident is "extremely regrettable," Kitazawa said.

He said in its current condition, the Kurama wasn't able to move on its own.

According to early reports, the commercial vessel is a South Korean container ship.

The news of the collision prompted Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama to issue an instruction to the ministry to launch a quick and thorough investigation.

Hatoyama also ordered the ministry to make sure the fire was quickly contained before it could spread to other parts of the warship, according to one of his aides.

Maritime experts said the Kammon Strait is one of Japan's narrowest and toughest sealanes to pass through.

The Kurama was returning to its home port of Sasebo, Nagasaki Prefecture, after serving as the flagship in a fleet review Sunday.

The Japan Times: Wednesday, Oct. 28, 2009

(C) All rights reserved
 
According to our expert, the Japanese press (Kyodo News) or the MoD is lying. As you can see no details of the cause of the fire are public and the possible cause may be a paint deposit in the bow.
 
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maruben    According to our expert the Japanese press (Kyodo News) is lying   10/28/2009 9:33:17 AM

MSDF warship collides with S. Korean freighter

 

Kyodo News

The Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer Kurama collided with a South Korean cargo vessel in the Kammon Strait in Fukuoka Prefecture at around 8 p.m. Tuesday, causing a fire on the warship, the Defense Ministry said.

Three crew members of the 5,200-ton Kurama sustained minor burns and light injuries, while no one on the freighter was hurt, the ministry said.

No details about the fire were immediately available, but footage on NHK TV showed flames rising from the bow, which appeared to have suffered significant damage.

According to the ministry, the Kurama's bow houses a paint storage locker.

Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa told a hastily arranged news conference that the Kurama crew was scrambling to contain the fire.

The incident is "extremely regrettable," Kitazawa said.

He said in its current condition, the Kurama wasn't able to move on its own.

According to early reports, the commercial vessel is a South Korean container ship.

The news of the collision prompted Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama to issue an instruction to the ministry to launch a quick and thorough investigation.

Hatoyama also ordered the ministry to make sure the fire was quickly contained before it could spread to other parts of the warship, according to one of his aides.

Maritime experts said the Kammon Strait is one of Japan's narrowest and toughest sealanes to pass through.

The Kurama was returning to its home port of Sasebo, Nagasaki Prefecture, after serving as the flagship in a fleet review Sunday.

The Japan Times: Wednesday, Oct. 28, 2009

(C) All rights reserved
 
According to our expert, the Japanese press (Kyodo News) or the MoD is lying. As you can see no details of the cause of the fire are public and the possible cause may be a paint deposit in the bow.
 
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