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Subject: Rafale AESA and Supercruise
Bluewings    3/30/2006 5:33:18 PM
Since few US posters don 't believe what FrenchStratege and myself are saying , it is time to clear ANY doubt on some important issues .

Rafale HAS an AESA radar and Rafale CAN supercruise .

#1: AESA :
"In April 2002, the DGA, the French defence procurement agency, appointed Thales to develop an active array radar demonstrator optimised for the Rafale omnirole fighter. Called DRAA (Démonstrateur Radar à Antenne Active, or Active Array Radar Demonstrator), the programme culminated in a series of demanding flight tests to validate its detection performance. Although the development schedule was
extremely tight, the DRAA met all programme milestones on time. This Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) demonstrator will pave the way to a production equipment for the Rafale.

With the adoption of an active antenna, RBE2 radar performance will be
even further increased : detection and tracking ranges will be significantly improved, angular coverage will be considerably expanded and reliability will be boosted to unprecedented levels.

Test-flying the DRAA

In December 2002, the first flight of the AESA system was carried out in a Mystere XX flying test bed belonging to the French MoD located in the Flight Test Centre at Cazaux (South-West of France). Subsequently, the DRAA demonstrator was fitted to two-seat production Rafale B301. ?For us, it was essential to prove to our customers that we could
easily fit a new array to the existing RBE2 hardware, stresses Jean-Marc Goujon, Rafale Radar Programme Manager. As such, one of the main goals of the DRAA programme was to demonstrate that the new array could easily be fitted to the B301?s current RBE2 electronic scanning radar without any modifications of the whole radar architecture. This modification was a total success, Thales and Dassault engineers being able to complete the task in less than three hours! This is a considerable achievement that proves impossible for our competitors who would have to completely redesign and rebuild their radar sets to
accommodate an AESA.? The first flight in Rafale B301
was recorded from Istres in May 2003. During the comprehensive flight test programme, the fully integrated Band X DRAA radar successfully transmitted, received and collected radar data, confirming all Thales prediction, a clear indication that the company totally masters AESA
technology "
****************************
#2: SUPERCRUISE :
(From 2 Pilots of the 12F Squadron onboard CdG)
«The Rafale is ideal for the job, stresses one of the two duty pilots.
It can climb to 40,000 feet in under two minutes and accelerate very rapidly to supersonic speed. More significantly, it can super-cruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop tank. Endurance is excellent too, and we can stay airborne up to two hours with one tank.» The pilots also praise the Rafale?s advanced man-machine
interface which considerably reduces their workload"
******************************************************
I hope is it clear for everybody .
As usual , I can upload the Pdf. file for your enjoyement .

Cheers .
 
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skrip00    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 5:52:55 PM
Im sorry, but no. The Rafale may be test flying an AESA demonstrator, but in no way does that mean France has an AESA radar in production for the Rafale, or in service. What your basically saying is equivalent to me saying: the X-35 was built, it flew, and therefor its clearly in service and fully capable. If France went to war right now, her Rafales would not have any AESA radar systems, which is the point many US posters are clear to point out. Our, or my, primary issue with you (BW) and FS, is that you talk as if the Rafale is in series production with the F3 standard and AESA radar. Yet both features are still in developement, or not in service yet. Its not so much a disagreement. Yes, the Rafale has flown with an AESA radar system, built largely with the help of the US, but it is not in service. If you continue talking like this, Darth is going to have to shoot down your F3 Rafales with his F-35 DEW laser death ray! (its a joke, its ok to laugh!)
 
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skrip00    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 5:58:48 PM
I'll believe the supercruise part, but how fast can it actually fly when supercruising? Also, what is the combat radius reduction? Even if you can push your aircraft that fast, external ordinance and belly tank will cause alot of drag. One more thing. Let's dispense with illusions here. If the Rafale ever enters combat, Im betting good odds it will be a bomb truck flying of bumblebutt-whatever not needing SPECTRA or a real AtA loadout... Thats a bit IF. But overall, the Rafale will probably fullfill its role as a strike aircraft more often than an AtA fighter looking at today's scenarios. I used to think "supercruise" was a big deal. Then I realized it was all spin. By the USAF when it came to the F-22A. Granted, I believe them, I believe it makes the F-22A the best, I want them to buy 300 F-22As, but no one told me that alot of aircraft can supercruise, but not with the flexibility of the F-22A.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 5:59:50 PM
My quotes were only a small part of the entire story . For a full review (Who stipulate that the components ARE FRENCH and that the AESA is available TODAY , please download the following files , thank you . link Cheers .
 
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SteelGear    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:21:16 PM
I don't think anyone is disputing the AESA is available to the French Today. The thing other people have disputed is the whether the French have been able to design their own home grown AESA without the help of the USA. The only French aircraft that has AESA to my knowledge is the Rafale AESA demostartor and thats it. The Radar on the Rafale at the moment is the RBE2 which is a PESA radar not an AESA.
 
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skrip00    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:24:14 PM
Bluewings, what I read from the download says the AESA is in testing and won't enter serial production till 2008 at the earliest. What I'm saying is the Rafale does not have AESA now. If France went to war right now, how many Rafales would have the AESA and be combat ready? One demonstrator with test equipment maybe?
 
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Bluewings    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:25:13 PM
"The only French aircraft that has AESA to my knowledge is the Rafale AESA demostartor and thats it. The Radar on the Rafale at the moment is the RBE2 which is a PESA radar not an AESA." That is correct . But as I said earlier , it doesn 't make any sense to fit the actual AESA on Rafale now , then take it away in a couple of years time to fit AMSAAR . France is not facing any threat at the moment . If the need would arise , the AESA can be fitted under 3 hours . Cheers .
 
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Bluewings    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:29:26 PM
"If France went to war right now, how many Rafales would have the AESA and be combat ready?" Very few . But today , RBE2 PESA can win the day vs. any Nation short of the USA . Are USA and France going to be at War today or 2moro ??? Cheers .
 
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skrip00    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:30:13 PM
But then again, how many AESA's does it have for the whole Rafale fleet? Then again, there arent than many Rafales around to begin with... Seems like any nation can be France with 4th gens and some attrition.
 
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SteelGear    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:33:10 PM
--But as I said earlier , it doesn 't make any sense to fit the actual AESA on Rafale now , then take it away in a couple of years time to fit AMSAAR .-- Well thats nice to know. --France is not facing any threat at the moment . If the need would arise , the AESA can be fitted under 3 hours .-- 3 hours? Well thats assuming nothing goes wrong......because I consider that to be a very optimistic number. I have no doubt though that future generations will probably have an AESA radar mounted. When that happens will depend on the French Government's committment to the Rafale (which seems strong at the moment).
 
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hybrid    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:41:46 PM
Good read BW, thanks for cleaning up the posting :)
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:44:30 PM
"I'll believe the supercruise part, but how fast can it actually fly when supercruising? " Don't, they haven't managed to demonstrate the capability in the real world. "Though current Rafale variants are claimed to be capable of supercruise, the aircraft was unable to demonstrate this during the Singapore evaluation, and many sources suggest that the aircraft is only marginally capable of supercruise, with light weapons loads and under certain atmospheric conditions, though a planned engine upgrade should, according to some sources , remove this limitation and allow the Rafale to supercruise with more realistic loads at around Mach 1.4." The above quote is from Wikipedia, but it is accurate. Supercruise on Rafale is yet another "maybe in the future" capability. The new engines are NOT funded as of today. "I used to think "supercruise" was a big deal. Then I realized it was all spin." It is a big deal. The fact that an F-22 can exceed M 1.7 without even resorting to afterburners means that as a partical matter it is nearly twice as fast as its competition. This allows the F-22 to dictate the terms of the engagement. It will enter the fight where and when it wants, and it will leave the fight where and when it wants.
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:46:58 PM
"For a full review (Who stipulate that the components ARE FRENCH and that the AESA is available TODAY , please download the following files , thank you " From my original post and sourced to Janes: "In fact, an AESA flew on Rafale in May 2003. According to Ramstein, a migration to AESA has been considered from the early days of the programme, and the RBE2 is designed so that an AESA front end can replace the current passive antenna and TWT. Power and cooling are adequate for the job. A programme called Demonstrateur de Radar a l?Antenne Active started in 2000, and the radar flew on a Falcon in late 2002 before flying in Rafale B301. ?It was a difficult integration, taking two or three days,? joked Ramstein. The problem, however, is that DRAA relied on US-sourced high-powered processing chips-which, after Korea and the Iraq war, no longer seemed like a good idea. A new AESA version of the RBE2, DRAAMA, using all European technology, was launched in July 2004 and will be ready for 2007-2008. ?We have a firm commitment to AESA, which allows us to propose it for export,? Ramstein says." ?It was reported that the original RBE2 AESA demonstrator was built using US-made Transmit/Receive (T/R) modules, whereas the new contract is intended to demonstrate the feasibility and benefits of equipping Rafale with an AESA based on European technology. It also covers risk assessment associated with radar integration and in-flight operational testing. The new AESA variant of the RBE2 is intended to enter service with the French Air Force in 2012 as part of the next-generation F4 configuration? BW, you are quite simply full of crap. I am sick and tired of hearing you and FS make up one "fact" after another about the Rafale without even a hint of proof.
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:48:47 PM
"But as I said earlier , it doesn 't make any sense to fit the actual AESA on Rafale now " This is the definition of sour grapes dude. You don't have it now because either you don't have a working design yet, or you can't build it yet. If you Could have an AESA right now you might have had a chance in Singapore, S Korea, and the UAE...
 
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Bluewings    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:54:42 PM
"I'll believe the supercruise part, but how fast can it actually fly when supercruising?" I am having a hard time to find a Pdf. who quotes the official speed . But from what I 've heard it is Mach1.21 . "Also, what is the combat radius reduction? Even if you can push your aircraft that fast, external ordinance and belly tank will cause alot of drag." I have no idea at this time . I 'look for it ... Cheers .
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise   3/30/2006 6:57:49 PM
"3 hours? Well thats assuming nothing goes wrong......because I consider that to be a very optimistic number." It is just more BS from him... they don't even have a radar to fit. "the GDTAR Consortium of BAE, EADS, and Thales are already at work on an AESA replacement: the Airborne Multi-mode Solid-state Airborne Radar (AMSAR). If all goes well, AMSAR may be ready for fielding by 2010-2011." link
 
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