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Subject: Light armor tracks for spec-ops
Hasan ibn Sabbah    10/25/2008 8:36:32 AM
Would light armor tracked vehicles like the M113 Gavin or something similar be beneficial to the spec-ops community? There has been numerous instances where armor would have been life-saving if only available. Instead wholly relying on helicopters and fighters planes for basically anything from insertions to medevacs to CAS, a team could extricate themselves without waiting and hoping if assets are available when time is critical. Just my 2 cents.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/25/2008 8:44:05 AM

Would light armor tracked vehicles like the M113 Gavin or something similar be beneficial to the spec-ops community?

No.  It goes against everything that specforces try to operate under.  Light armour is used by other force elements for a reason - its not a special forces platform.
 
esp the M113.  They might as well hold out signs and wear fluorescent  shirts.
 
in addition you need to define which specforces community (not that it makes much of a difference in this context).  
 
 
 
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ArtyEngineer       10/25/2008 1:10:41 PM

Would light armor tracked vehicles like the M113 Gavin or something similar be beneficial to the spec-ops community? There has been numerous instances where armor would have been life-saving if only available. Instead wholly relying on helicopters and fighters planes for basically anything from insertions to medevacs to CAS, a team could extricate themselves without waiting and hoping if assets are available when time is critical. Just my 2 cents.

No such vehicle.  I guess you are a Mike Sparks disciple.
 
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Phaid       10/25/2008 2:15:45 PM
Armored vehicles are neither stealthy nor fast, and require way too much in terms of logistics to fit into any kind of Special Ops scenario. 
 
The two cases that leap to mind where armor was useful for a special operations mission were Mogadishu and Panama.  In Panama, a Little Bird went down in the street, and the operators were picked up by an APC.  In Somalia, obviously once the fighting got heavy, armor was needed to extract the forces that were pinned down in the city.
 
In both cases, it's a situation where the Special Ops mandate -- secrecy and speed -- has gone out the window.  At that point, you need a big unit with lots of guns and noise to come in and pull your fat out of the fire.  And you don't need a Special Ops unit to do that, you need guys who train with armored vehicles and know how to use them.  In Mogadishu, the problem wasn't that there were no Special Ops armored units, it was that there were no U.S. armored units at all.  In Panama, since there was a general invasion going on, there were U.S. armored units all over the place, so that wasn't a problem.
 
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Hasan ibn Sabbah       10/28/2008 7:15:30 AM
Not a disciple. Just like folks know the A-10 mostly by its nickname "Warthog" instead of Thunderbolt 2.
 
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gf0012-aust       10/28/2008 7:31:04 AM

Not a disciple. Just like folks know the A-10 mostly by its nickname "Warthog" instead of Thunderbolt 2.


The point being that the M113 has never been known as the "Gavin" except by Sparks and his followers.
 
I could call the VW Beetle "the watermelon" - it doesn't make it so.
 
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Hasan ibn Sabbah       10/28/2008 4:41:04 PM
Not all SOF missions involve secrecy and speed. When Army SF and Kurd fighters went up against that terrorist group up north in Iraq in 03 and basically the whole northern region, that was a a pure regular infantry slugfest. In Somalia 93, maybe those guys should have rode in APCs instead of humvees and 2.5 tons.
 
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