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Subject: Smitty, another controversial post. But I promise I'm not calling names
SCCOMarine    3/7/2007 7:24:52 PM
Read to the END
 
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SCCOMarine       3/7/2007 7:27:58 PM

Alright, I’m a prick.  I’m an asshole, OK!  But your wrong, I love to debate.  But did you read what I had to say about your post?  It is full of that BS, Army know it all attitude of b/c the Corps didn’t join SOCOM in ’86 that we’re somehow behind the curve, or have some ulterior motive. 

 

Re-read your post, have someone read it to you, listen to your tone.  I bet you had a big Smug grin on your face while you were typing it.

 

You have the attitude, but I’m the Asshole?   OK!

 

Well it’s a good thing Special Operations and SOF began in 1986, huh?  That’ll shut up those Dumb Ass Marines!


I sure am glad when SOCOM was being formed they didn’t ask former Marine Corps Commandant Gen PX Kelley to be the first Commander.

I’m glad they didn’t request all Corps Specialized Units to be transferred over to SOCOM and that 1 Infantry BN be on rotation for use.

 

No, wait??  They did ask PX Kelley to lead SOCOM, they did request that the MC transfer over all Specialized Units, and the Corps and the other services have been running Special Operations for years B4 and after the birth of SOCOM.

 

You see its mostly Regular Army Turds, who’ve done nothing more Special then ride the short bus, who come on sites like this w/ their ass up on their shoulders.  Yelling “Who put this thing together” like Tony Montana on Scarface.

 
If this fits you, then take offense!  If not then you the type I’m talking about. 
I want you to ask questions, just leave the attitude at home.
 
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GOP       3/8/2007 12:31:46 AM

Alright, I’m a prick.  I’m an asshole, OK!  But your wrong, I love to debate.  But did you read what I had to say about your post?  It is full of that BS, Army know it all attitude of b/c the Corps didn’t join SOCOM in ’86 that we’re somehow behind the curve, or have some ulterior motive. 


 


Re-read your post, have someone read it to you, listen to your tone.  I bet you had a big Smug grin on your face while you were typing it.


 


You have the attitude, but I’m the Asshole?   OK!


 


Well it’s a good thing Special Operations and SOF began in 1986, huh?  That’ll shut up those Dumb Ass Marines!



I sure am glad when SOCOM was being formed they didn’t ask former Marine Corps Commandant Gen PX Kelley to be the first Commander.


I’m glad they didn’t request all Corps Specialized Units to be transferred over to SOCOM and that 1 Infantry BN be on rotation for use.

 


No, wait??  They did ask PX Kelley to lead SOCOM, they did request that the MC transfer over all Specialized Units, and the Corps and the other services have been running Special Operations for years B4 and after the birth of SOCOM.


 


You see its mostly Regular Army Turds, who’ve done nothing more Special then ride the short bus, who come on sites like this w/ their ass up on their shoulders.  Yelling “Who put this thing together” like Tony Montana on Scarface.


 

If this fits you, then take offense!  If not then you the type I’m talking about. 

I want you to ask questions, just leave the attitude at home.


SCCO, I really like you man and your posts, so I definitely don't think your an @sshole. But don't compare what SOCOM has done in special operations in America to what little the USMC has done. Force Recon is awesome, but they are all you guys have (the whole MEU(SOC) thing ain't close to true special operations). Smitty isn't that Army turd type you mention, he basically started his PD's SWAT team from what he has posted, and he seems to be a veteran of the war on crime.

 
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SCCOMarine       3/8/2007 1:02:25 AM
You misinterpret.  Im not comparing the MC to SOCOM.  ppl have this attitude I was describing earlier b/c they have this memory of SO that doesn't extend past '86.
 
When I say Marines I'm refering to some individuals and some particular units, not the Corps as a whole.
 
SF is 50+, the SEALs are 45 right?  Did they suddenly become capable of running SO missions in 1986?  F(k no! 
 
FR and other Marine Corps Specialized Units are over 50yrs old, running the same missions then when they were requested and almost forced to join SOCOM, as they do now when the volunteerily joined.
 
So b/c the Corps Specialized Units didn't join in '86.
 
This is No knock, but when FR annd SEALs used to deploy together up til the 90's FR was given the lead in the DA missions and they split the rest of the SO missions.
 
They're Special Reconnaissance skills are good enough to go Scud hunting w/ Delta and the SAS in the G-War, and be one of the less than 100 US personnel on the ground calling CAS in the Opening months of A'stan.
 
But some how they're skills are called into question on this site...Naahht!
 
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SCCOMarine       3/8/2007 1:22:39 AM
I'm only reminding ppl of what they might've forgot or Just don't know!
 
In '86 when they were discussing the Formation of SOCOM they offered the lead role to the Marine Corps, not the Army.  They offered the position of first SOCOM Comander to former CMC Gen PX Kelley.  Both turned it down for what was believed to be a more important role at the time.
 
But ppl get on this site and don't know the history or the facts beyond their own favorite team, and damn sure don't know the policies that set everything in motion.  And Thats the key to understanding all of this.
 
If they want to have a discussion about it, hey I'm all for it.  But don't go bad mouthing the Corps when 1) They don't know what our capabities are and 2) They don't know the policies that have affected any decisions made.
 
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SCCOMarine       3/8/2007 1:26:44 AM
And also the list is long for what the Marine Corps has done for the field of Special Operations.
 
You can't confuse what you don't know about the MC as fact.
 
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smitty237       3/8/2007 2:24:09 PM
So you're calling me out by name and hoping to elicit a response? Well.................I guess it worked, but I'm not going to get too wrapped up in this. The reason I wanted to avoid a pissing match in the first place is because I think it's a waste of time to argue with someone over the internet. I will admit, however, that you have me at a slight disadvantage because I am not nearly as emotionally invested in this topic as you are, SCCOMarine, but I think that your emotional involvement works against you sometimes because you take any perceived criticism against the Marine Corps VERY personally, and you tend to get personal very quickly in your rebuttals. Just because a person disagrees with your point of view or has some questions regarding your threads doesn't necessarily mean that they are stupid or don't know what they're talking about. They may just have a different point of view. If someone writes something you disagree with you should treat that as an opportunity to educate them or at least persuade them to consider the validity of your arguments. Telling them that they don't know what f#ck they're talking about is a debate ender and hurts your credibility. 
 

Let me say right off that I have absolutely nothing against the Marine Corps. In fact, I would say that man for man they are probably the toughest fighting force in the modern world. They are a fully integrated branch with aircraft, helicopter, armored, and infantry resources. Most world militaries would lust after the firepower the USMC can bring to bear, and I firmly believe that the US Marine Corps could take on most foreign militaries by themselves with only limited US Navy support. I also have nothing against USMC special ops units, and I really don't know where you inferred that from my four sentence post. Marine Force Recon and ANGLICO units are well respected in the special ops community for good reason. I feel that the USMC made a big mistake when they declined to participate in SOCOM twenty years ago, but they have made up for that since then. The "piece of the SOCOM pie" I was referring to had less to do with money than it did with operational experience. As anyone that has ever carried a gun for reasons other than hunting or plinking knows, you can train 24/7 but the best teacher is real world experince in combat conditions. After the Cold War ended it became apparent that the US would be much more likely to become involved in Direct Action operations than it would large scale deployments, and most of those small unit DA ops would be conducted by Special Ops units. The Marines are hard chargers and always want a piece of the action, and I think they realized that its participation in SOCOM was essential if it wanted to participate. As the GWOT progresses I think you will see a lot more DA operations than you will major pitched battles of brigade or division sized units. The Marines were smart to commit to SOCOM, and I'm sure their input and experience was welcome.

 

I will repost my original response to your thread about the Marine FMTU teams, and I'll let the others decide if I was copping an attitude. One of the biggest disadvantages of written communication over verbal communication is that most verbal communication relies upon non-verbal communication (i.e., hand gestures, tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.). None of that is present with written communication, so for various reasons the recipient may interpret the tone of the communication in a way that it wasn't intended. I wrote the comment, so I know what my attitude was at the time. I would describe my frame of mind at the time I wrote it as more skeptical than anything. I had never heard of the FMTU teams, so I was curious about them, but I had some questions as to their mission and purpose and how their mission was different from the one already being performed by the Army SF ODA teams. They seemed to be doing the exact same job as the Special Forces were doing, so I was simply curious as to why such a unit was created when SF had been doing this job for half a century. Yes, I did read your post, and I reread it again, but some of my questions were not answered. Bad News did a pretty good job of addressing my questions and I was ready to leave it at that. For whatever reasons SOCOM requested that MARSOC form the FMTU teams, and no, I would not expect the Corps to tell SOCOM no. This sounds like a great opportunity for them and I'm sure they'll do a great job, but I become skeptical whenever I see one branch assuming a responsibility that another branch is already performing. I was a little skeptical of the new Navy Infantry units, and I would be equally skeptical if the Army decided to organize units soley dedicated to amphibious warfare.

 

That said, it appears that DoD and SOCOM simply viewed the Corps as another resource of good instructors and training cadre. The Special Forces haved been e

 
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BadNews    Enough already   3/8/2007 6:35:52 PM
You Smitty, I think I like you.
 
Anyway, the long and the short of this whole thing seems to be this. SCCCO Marine you are obviously very excited about where the corps is heading and proud of your service, as you very well should be, but in some of your post, when you got a bit upset over what you perceived as an attack, you said some pretty wild things, basically calle dthe US Army a bunch of F#ck ups, which I believe that you know in your heart just isn't true. This does not and never will help you get your point across. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge concerning the USMC, but that wains quickly when you pull that boot camp stuff that we are some kind of supermen. 
 
Yes, I too get frustrated when non marines don't seam to understand what just how involved MEU operations are and just how flexible they are, but once you go off on one of your diatribes you actually loose a few of your Marine bretheren along the way.
 
In your Zeal for the corps and it's direction, you seemed to have forgotten two big things.
 
1) We are all on the same team, we share experiences and lessons learned between services on a daily basis.
 
2) NO MATTER WHAT SPECIAL OPERATIONS CAPABILITIES THE MEU HAS, IT IS A FORWARD DEPLOYED INFANTRY BN FIRST AND FOREMOST, THIS ALWAYS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE. It is the basic of all that is marine, may the grunt rein supreme, whether in the 2nd Marine regiment or the 82nd Airbonre division!
 
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Bluewings12       3/8/2007 8:18:50 PM
The way you all talk to each other , Gents , is simply exemplary .
An ex SpecOps grunt salutes you :)

Cheers .

 
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SCCOMarine       3/9/2007 11:55:16 AM

No, No, No, I could give a F(k where the Corps headed in SO, I'm out going to school.  I may rejoin latter but that’s irrelevant.

 

I’m more concerned about the past and the attitude shown on this site that, b/c the Corps didn’t join SOCOM in ’86 that we were somehow irrelevant in the SO game, both pre ’86 and post, and that’s false.

 

Here’s the truth.  For 40+ yrs B4 ’86 all 4 services were deeply involved in SO development and missions.  But truthfully, it was the Army and the Marine Corps that lead way in SO development in the US.

 
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SCCOMarine       3/9/2007 11:57:47 AM
that was lead development pre '86. 
 
It got cut off
 
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