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Phoenix Rising RE:Time to go 1/18/2002 11:19:16 AM

Huh? What morning paper was this? I haven't seen anything about on the AP site, CNN.com, or DefenseLink ... do you have a link? I don't have any particular qualms about leaving Saudi Arabia in particular, but the U.S. does need to maintain a presence in the region and the detachment at Prince Sultan AFB there is substantial. It costs a lot to maintain a carrier presence, and I'm not sure if even a carrier is big enough to hold all of those forces. They're land and air forces, anyway, not amphibious or naval air, so they'd be out of their element if we had to keep them offshore. Which brings me to my next point: if we leave, where do we go? What other countries in the region have given us permission to use/erect bases in their territory? What are the capacities of those bases, if known? I'm interested in how the logistics of this will work ... I think it's pretty much a given that if SA does ask us to leave, we're not really just going to pack up and go home. --Phoenix Rising

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Ike RE:Time to go 1/18/2002 11:32:50 AM

It wasnt the paper after all, it was on MSN news site: www.msn.com/news/690066.asp. To sum it up the crown prince who is pretty much running the show wants to prevent the opposition from using that as an excuse to remove them from power. Also to gain more credibility with other Muslim countries etc.

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Phoenix Rising RE:Time to go 1/18/2002 11:57:25 AM

Too late for the link ... it's already been taken down. If you find another one, could you excerpt it here? I don't think this is an extremely major development, but it was somewhat unexpected. Thanks! --Phoenix Rising

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Ike RE:Time to go 1/18/2002 12:34:41 PM

It was taken from a Wasington Post article, I think you can get to it at washingtonpost.com

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FalloutBoy RE:Time to go - To Ike 1/18/2002 4:28:55 PM

I actually would be glad to see U.S. troops leave that miserable little radical-islam exporting country. The only military disadvantage would be losing a front for attack. A pincer attack from Turkey and SA simultaneously would be more devasting than a single invasion from Turkey.

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pragmatist RE:Time to go - To Ike 1/18/2002 8:54:36 PM

try ... link

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bsl RE:Time to go 1/18/2002 10:29:40 PM

Problems? Apart from the tribe of Saud - may their fate encompass something lingering, yet amusing, involving either molten lead, or boiling oil - Kuwait won't be pleased, and America will, in the large picture, be seen to have suffered something of a defeat at the hands of an Islamic country. Forget the details, or how things would look to us; a good part of the moslem world will interpret a withdrawal in that way. I'll bet serious money on the point. From our point of view, this perception will be a strategic liability, and, additionally, we have a substantially more difficult military problem inserting serious force into the region without a substantial, local base. It's difficult to overstate how much easier the Gulf War was, for us, because of those facilities we had in Arabia. OTOH, the military will have a slightly easier logistical burden. They'll be able to drop the "Camouflage Burka" program, plus the "Dress Veil" tests.... BSL

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Pakistani RE:Time to go - To Ike 1/19/2002 5:59:51 AM

Well Pheonix you dont have to worry because you dont have to leave until agfanistan is over. ONe point, is this a victor to Al-Queda? Will bin Ladin be laughing in his grave? Dont mean to rub salt into wounds here just an honest question. If ameirica is forced to leave this may encourage more terrorists to terroirse to accomplish their aims. This may be a change to overthrow the Saudis with a stages coup blaming it on radical elements but then strike a deal within. Secondly this does cause a lot of problems to what I was discussing in earlier posts. I guess the stragtegy may have to be on the economic front... i.e. making sure that Suadia arabia no longer finances terrorists and fanatics across the worlds, Espically in Pakistan.... it has caused too much damage.

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bsl RE:Time to go - To Ike 1/19/2002 10:03:32 PM

"ONe point, is this a victor to Al-Queda? Will bin Ladin be laughing in his grave?" Very fair and reasonable question. As I've already written, I think it WILL be seen by many as a victory for OBL's jihad. This isn't the ONLY result it will have (or would have). In an odd way, for instance, it might prove liberating to American policy in the short run. We've been restrained by Saudi concerns, and by our own concern over the Saudis, on many occasions in the past. If we leave, especially if we feel kicked out, I wouldn't be suprized if we place MUCH less weight on the "Saudi factor". Who cares what the ruling tribe thinks? Or, further, who cares what happens to them? We'll still worry about Gulf oil, generally. But, I predict a certain undercurrent of ill-will towards the tribe of Saud will begin to enter American policy. A limited degree, but some of it. We will tend to describe it, however, as a pragmatic desire to begin to plan for a world without the descendants of Saud, and we will admit, with relief, that we've started a bit late. "just an honest question." It is. And, an important question which ought be asked. "I guess the stragtegy may have to be on the economic front... i.e. making sure that Suadia arabia no longer finances terrorists and fanatics across the worlds, Espically in Pakistan...." I don't disagee with how you've identified the economic matter. But, I'm not sure I see exactly how we will accomplish this goal.

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Jeff from Michigan To Pakistani - further comments to BSL's comments 1/20/2002 12:02:08 AM

To add to BSL's comments which I totally agree with in order to build a functioning society you need equality under the law. I don't know if you have time to read an extra book during your studies. It is called "Trust" by Frances Fukiyama. It's basic point is that one of the reason that the West is so properous is that the law is applied equally especially in economic matters. Connections though helpful don't mean everything (as you well know coming from a third world country). Read it if you can. It has proven to be very convincing to me. Regarding the Qu'ran separating church and state can you point me to specific passages. Everything I have read is contrary starting with the Caliphate/Ottoman empires.

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