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Subject: Pzh 2000 fires at Taliban - first use of heavy artillery since 1945.
Nasty German Idiot     7/14/2010 3:07:58 PM
On July 7th, the German Army used the PZH2000 as the first heavy artillery piece since 1945 to pound the Taliban after an ambush near Kunduz. Taliban withdrew immediately.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       7/14/2010 3:11:41 PM
http://www.bundeswehr.de/fileserving/PortalFiles/C1256EF40036B05B/W286NED7385INFODE/image_popup.jpg" />
 
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 http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8211/bdw1024.jpg" />
 
 http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3014/pzhd.jpg" />
 
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7812/pzh2n.jpg" /> 
 
 
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WarNerd       7/15/2010 4:22:28 AM
Looks nice.
 
Now let's see if the ROE allows you to use it effectively and often enough to justify the expense of bringing it.
 
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Mikko       7/16/2010 2:39:34 AM
Such a beauty, such a beauty..
 
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Nasty German Idiot       7/16/2010 12:08:58 PM

Looks nice.

 

Now let's see if the ROE allows you to use it effectively and often enough to justify the expense of bringing it.


They were declared operational on July 4th, and first used on July 7.  You can bet that they will be used almost daily, since the German troops are attacked daily.   Today the German Defense minister had to cancel a visit to the QRF in Kunduz because the unit was just under attack ... 
 
 Interesting article on topic:   "the 20mm argument"  (from bundeswehr.de )
 
XXXttp://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/einsaetze/missionen/isaf?yw_contentURL=/C1256EF4002AED30/W287EAGP965INFODE/content.jsp
 
http://www.bundeswehr.de/fileserving/PortalFiles/C1256EF40036B05B/W287EDNR739INFODE/image_large.jpg" /> 
 
 english sum up:
 
- 10 additional "Marder" are on the Way to Afghanistan 
 
- during a serious fight last month, (in Isa Khel near Kunduz)  the weapons of a German Fallschirmjäger unit prooved mostly inefficient against the mud walls of Afghan compbounds.   (5,56 mm G-36 -   7,62mm MG-3)
 
- the INS however were able to penetrate a wall with an RPG, causing one German soldier to loose an eye through splinters and another was blinded completely. 
 
- it is believed that the INS have spies inside the ISAF camps, and reported the shift of units, enabling the Taliban to concentrate on a unit very "new" in Afghanistan and without knowledge of the terrain.
 
- intercepted telephone calls reveal that INS were well informed enough to differenciate between 2 differend units of Paratroopers and even knew names of some German soldiers. (the Paratrooper batallion from Seedorf has fought in Afghanistan for 2 years now Luftlandebrigade 26 - specially trained in anti-insurgent tactics - Taliban doesnt attack these guys - instead they concentrated on a new brigade that just arrived)  
 
-  when Marder IFV are part of patrols,  Taliban mostly withdraw directly when they are engaged
 
http://www.bundeswehr.de/fileserving/PortalFiles/C1256EF40036B05B/W287EFPK631INFODE/image_large.jpg" /> 
 
- especially during a fight on July 19th  2009 near the town of Zar-Kharid-i-Sufla at Kunduz,  the Marder prooved itself.   The 20mm gun took out snipers, machinegunners and RPG shooters that had surrounded a ANA unit that was trained by Belgian soldiers.  The 20mm gun of the Marder was able to penetrate the hard concrete like mud walls.
 
- it was found that the Marder, although weighting 38 tons,  is nearly as fast and manouverable as the Dingo and Fuchs transport vehicles, but offer an even better protection against mines.   (the Marders all recieved extra-anti-mine armor before going to Afghanistan)  

With the Marders, the German Army can engage the enemy at a range of 1000 meters with high accurancy.  A German commander also noted that the troops feel a lot saver when having them with them, adding a moral boost.  
 Interesting: 
 
- Fallschirmjäger and Panzergrenadiere  (Paratroopers and mechanized Infantry) have developed a new tactic,  the Fallschirmjäger park their vehicles at the edges of a village and patrol on foot around the village. 
After this, the Marder drives into the village and disembark the Panzergrenadiere,  who than march close behind the Marder and use it as a huge shield offering cover and fire protection while on patrol. 
 
To carry out this kind of tactics, new courses of training and a new program teaching fighting in foreign city urban Areas has been developed and is now tought extensively in new training exercises in Germany.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 
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AThousandYoung       7/16/2010 10:18:26 PM
I'm missing something.  20mm guns are what Cobras use.  They're not heavy artillery.  155mm is heavy artillery.  No?
 
The Marder sounds like a Bradley - an IFV - not artillery, but that is one BIG gun for an IFV in the picture...
 
Please explain?
 
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WarNerd       7/17/2010 3:35:07 AM


Looks nice.

Now let's see if the ROE allows you to use it effectively and often enough to justify the expense of bringing it.

They were declared operational on July 4th, and first used on July 7.  You can bet that they will be used almost daily, since the German troops are attacked daily.   Today the German Defense minister had to cancel a visit to the QRF in Kunduz because the unit was just under attack ... 

I am sure that the PZH2000 is highly capable, and that they would like to use the to its full capabilities.  The question is will they be permitted to.
 
It will not be the fault of the soldiers, their training, or their morale (though it may suffer in the end).  The answer to that question is political, and the indications so far is that the answer will prove to be NO.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       7/17/2010 6:51:03 AM

I'm missing something.  20mm guns are what Cobras use.  They're not heavy artillery.  155mm is heavy artillery.  No?

 

The Marder sounds like a Bradley - an IFV - not artillery, but that is one BIG gun for an IFV in the picture...

 

Please explain?


The articles I summed up was about new Infantry tactics and heavier weapons shipped in, not about the Pzh2000.  (sorry that was misleading ) 
 
 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       7/17/2010 6:57:41 AM






Looks nice.



Now let's see if the ROE allows you to use it effectively and often enough to justify the expense of bringing it.




They were declared operational on July 4th, and first used on July 7.  You can bet that they will be used almost daily, since the German troops are attacked daily.   Today the German Defense minister had to cancel a visit to the QRF in Kunduz because the unit was just under attack ... 




I am sure that the PZH2000 is highly capable, and that they would like to use the to its full capabilities.  The question is will they be permitted to.

 

It will not be the fault of the soldiers, their training, or their morale (though it may suffer in the end).  The answer to that question is political, and the indications so far is that the answer will prove to be NO.

At the moment the German Army has installed defense points everywhere in Char Darreh (where the most hostile forces are stationed)  dug in,  and now waits for prey.  The patrols are attacked daily,  and when there are no civilians around the PZH will be used to give cover and bomb the enemy.  Also night ilumination and smoke screens are possible. 
 
ROE have been changed in 2008 and than again in 2009 and are now similar to other ISAF nations.  The KSK can now and has already killed INS on the same simple "find and kill the enemy" orders given to US forces.  This was stated officially a while ago.  I have no Idea why this news does not reach the US or the media in general,  who keep retelling the old "Germans dont shoot in Afghanistan" story.   Contrary to that,  800 dead Taliban since 2005 in Northern Afghanistan tell a differend story.
 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       7/17/2010 7:12:45 AM
If you look at what has been going on in Kunduz alone ...  ( english source:)
 
 
 
With the support of United States special forces and German troops [28], another offensive was launched by Afghan forces in Chahar Dara on November 5.[29] According to media coverage, 133 Taliban and one US soldier were killed [30]
 
"On December 14, yet another concerted offensive was launched. The advancing battle group was composed of 300 German soldiers and 300 members of the local security forces. The goal was to set up a permanent checkpoint in Chahar Dara and to win the local population over for the government agencies. Combat engineers along with troops of 4./391 mechanized infantry battalion encountered hostile forces earlier that day when they were trying to rebuild a bridge over the Kunduz river, making another way into Chahar Dara passable. Fierce fighting erupted during the following days, wounding two German troopers and killing several insurgents, including local Taliban leader Mullah Ahsanullah [34].
In January 2010, each the United States and Germany decided to increase their efforts in Kunduz by about 6,000 troops and civil personnel [35]. After a successful advance into Chahar Dara in late December, another suchlike operation was started on January 28. Operation Gala-e Gorg (Operation Wolf Pack) included almost 500 German and about 120 Afghan troops and aimed at the installation of further outposts in the rebellious district. One German soldier was wounded and nine insurgents killed in intense fighting [36]."
 
These positions that were taken from the enemy now have to be defended WW1 style in the most dangerous regions:
 
4:45  shows Hill 431 -  which has prooven to be a grave for the Taliban which tried to take it in the night several times and took heavy losses.  

http://www.youtube.com/v/ImgUjUj0MSw&hl=de_DE&fs=1"> http://www.youtube.com/v/ImgUjUj0MSw&hl=de_DE&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505">
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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HeavyD       7/18/2010 2:52:12 AM
This action supports my theory of the need for a new turret for MBTs that will not see opposing armor:  Give it a 120mm mortar/gun (with a cannister and thermobaric round as well as existing 120mm mortar - especially GPS guided - rounds) and a 30mm from the Puma.
 
Drop this in a Leopard 2, and Mr. Taliban will be most unhappy.  Ground commanders and troops will be very happy.
 
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