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eu4ea 4/16/2007 9:26:07 PM

Panther,

That's absurd. Complain all you want about "the media", but the basic fact here is that they are *not* in charge of deciding whether a large scale military operation succeeds or fails. The very suggestion that somehow plotting & scheming in mysterious back rooms is what will make the Surge succeed of fail is severely delusional.

Heart,

eu4ea

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Panther 4/17/2007 3:39:33 AM

Sigh... Perhaps this post might help to clarify my point, then again it may scare you half to death... who knows?

What is war, if it is not too make your enemy comply with your wishes? What one can't ever achieve on the battlefield, can be easily taken from the minds of the weak, most especially in a democracy. Sounds incredibly brutal, doesn't it? Welcome to the real world of being on the frontlines of psychological warfare my friend. If you don't think these guy's are media savvy too the point of being master's of manipulation, then you might be in for a rude wake up call. In our democracy, freedom of speech is extremely precious too all of us, hold on way too tight and we may just lose everything we hold dear & precious. In the real world of this brutal war in a zero sum game, nothing should ever be taken for granted, especially by those who say they have nothing against us too our face and plot our murder & destruction once our backs are turned.

Previous administrations up til Johnson's, understood the effects of propaganda, most especially the propaganda coming from those who are incredibly hostile too us, as well as being within us, and acted accordingly to safe guard the republic. Your idol F. Roosevelt understood the value of keeping a tight lip and reign on the press. Woodrow Wilson not only understood it, but was incredibly zealous in reigning in all the anti-war protestors & conpiracy crap floating around in the press and the nation shortly after we became involved in the european conflict. A. Lincoln (The very man who waged & understood the brutality of war, did so successfully against my ancestor's) is, IMO... the granddaddy of all President's who not only understood what the power of an out of control press was capable of doing too this republic in a time of war, but felt no remorse for the suspension of habeas corpus too safeguard this republic. The man had a set of balls to go along with the ample supply of gut's too see that conflaguration through and do what he had to do. Or, What about the alien and sedition acts of 1798? Was that as absurd too, in the days of of the founding father's too act so delusionally too safeguard the well being of this republic!

Am i quite so delusional now that i remind you, that of our more honored President's (Especially your idol) & law maker's, they who had felt no or very little compunction of limiting free speech for our survival, as well for the future generations yet too come, are just as equally delusional as i am!

Ah well... i feel really sad too say this, but Americans now a days are simply not made of the same stuff as our forefather's who lacked nearly everything we have today. We do seem to have become too scared to sacrafice for our survival. That is not to say that i will ever really believe that we deserve death ( a la Hitler). But i do believe we should demand & give more of ourseleves... if one is capable, instead of always taking and never giving back too a country that no longer demands anything from us ordinary individuals, it's very citizen's who reside here.

Understand me correctly! This is not just about the surge. This is not about imposing our will on Iraq. Nor is it about the same in Afghanistan or anywhere else on this G*d forsaken cynical planet. This is about our way of life and being allowed too live it here within our border's free from complete interference.We had that once before we stupidly gave it all away, because of the efforts of your idol who has put us in a completely impossible situation of saving this world in it's entirity, causing many of us too alway's think about whether we should "sink or swim"! I'd rather swim than sink! Of course... staying afloat isn't easy, all becuase of so many half-baked conspiracy theories & sh!##y pieces of crap that passes itself off as the politically unbiased and completely objective news and with plenty of enough people with BDS!

I don't believe in a few men in some mysterious backrooms cutting deals and plotting our downfall, that belongs in the realm of the dream state that is hollywood. What i do believe in however.... is man's stupidity to do the dirty work for his own enemies!

Forgive me if this had sounded a little bit of a rant. Oh well... it's off my chest now.

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xylene 4/18/2007 1:46:36 PM

The media only reports what is happening. The fact that 50 people were killed 2 days ago, 20 Iraqi police killed yesterday, that a suicide bomber successfully attacked the Green Zone, and 178 killed today is not the fault of the media and the mere fact of reporting it is not a direct attempt to derail the "surge".

I'm sure the terrorists want to get headlines, but at same time a news person can't simply ignore 178 people getting blown up nor can they just ignore the story of Iraqi Parliment members getting attacked. I agree it is not the media's job to tell us what to think, they just need to report and the simple fact we have been informed of what has happened means they have done their job.

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eu4ea 4/18/2007 11:03:13 PM

Precisely.

There is a widespread (and tedious) misconception that blaming the press, going on media elites, vested interests, and shady conspiracies is somehow smart, insightful, or preceptive. That's the core belief behind the previous post.

And it's wrong. It's not smart. It's not patriotic. It's not cute. It's merely a new form of hiding your head in the sand.

The facts are there - bombs inside the green zone, over 180 iraqis killed by car bombs in a single day, etc. The intelligent (and patriotic) thing to do is not to hide away from these facts or to blame the press for reporting them - it's to do something about it.

The way things look at this point, the much-touted "surge" is another wet firecracker - just like the countless operations before it that were hyped up as the "breaking the insurgency's back", the "tipping point", "mop up operations" or whatever. Hence we've been lied to - again.

Hence we should demand accountability - or at the very least stop sheepishly accepting this never-ending stream of excuses.

Heart,

eu4ea

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Pseudonym 4/19/2007 12:01:36 AM

"The media only reports what is happening" and think they can sell. In other words blood or boobs.

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Panther 4/19/2007 2:13:40 AM

Xylene, These terrorist jerks go about blowing people up because they know without a shadow of a doubt that the media will report on these bloody atrocities, knowing that it will discredit anything we do too help stabilize the situation in Iraq. My main point still stands. Take away the fuel to their fire and watch them suffocate without the air they need too breathe!

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Panther 4/19/2007 2:21:54 AM

First off, yes - i get extremely ticked off with those who abused the trust (i.e. A.N.S.W.E.R & ect...) for their own political ends, of those who are sincerely anti-war for the right reason's. But i've never accussed those of truthful sincerity for peace... as unpatriotic by protesting or questioning any war! I may have thought their views were ignorant, but in no way have i ever considered them unpatriotic! Do not make the mistake of putting me in any nice and easy too understand catergory! We're both intelligent & mature enough to know not to go there! Unless you prefer too belittle yourself by playing that game.

Now...of course it is my view to blame quite a bit of the press for being irresponsibly duped by the terrorists. Is it really being informed knowing how easy it is too destroy anything, then it is too secure and rebuild everything! No - it's not informative at all! Any dang idiotic blubbering fool knows... that after watching how the press feeds off of the blood and guts of any violence, that the way too immortality is to tap into the bloody side of our nature by commiting such atrocities, knowing the high possibilitiy that they won't be around too take responsibility for their actions and leaving it for everyone else too take the fall for the other's shortcoming's. The killer(s) maybe hated for eternity, but they will never be forgotten! Society takes the blame and the individual(s) or groups get a free pass to fame. Do you understand what i am trying to say? We don't need to be sitting back and playing the game of "Gotcha" with one another, letting the country flounder just because many don't like the current President and his foreign or domestic policies. I think this country and it's people can be better than such childish immaturrity of blaming just a few in government and ignoring all the time, that the reponsibilities we have for each other as a country, extends way beyond our political point of views! I'm talking responsibility for what we say and do, should be held accountable too each and every US citizen, starting with the President all the way down to the average unknown citizen!

However, one thing i would like to say this by pointing out, is that too keep ourseleves from freaking out every time in the forseeable future over the possibility of us further restricting ourseleves in our speech, in regards to the future through anymore unnecessary laws, all i ask for and think is needed is a certain large amount of accountability and responsibility from those whose desire is too inform us through the news. i.e. Put the welfare of the American people before their ratings! I think it is as easy as that!

As for our government lying too us again. Wake up & look around you! Half the country has never believed anything our government has ever said since the birth of this nation anyways, but most particulary... ever since President Kennedy's asassination! Your opinion is nothing new, nor are you the first too dislike a sitting President, i have no problem accepting that! But have you ever stopped to think, does this guy you even enjoy sticking up for what modern liberalism had built within the past sixty years (i.e. our currently bloated government)? Of course not! Under different peaceful circumstances minus a war, i would be thoroughly enjoying watching liberals dismantle what they had built! The irony of this situation is astounding to me. But, this is not the time nor the place for me too gloat on the shortcomings of what i think is the fault of modern day liberalism. On the contrary my friend. I think this is the time to think of you and i and the rest in this country... as Americans first ,above all else, and let our political disagreement's be what they really are... a "Minor" thing. Considering the many and varied threats we now face, in this extremely different world that we have now been in for the past six year's!

Now i have a question for anyone whose view points differ from mine. Do you all think of me and those with a like mind, as an enemy or as fellow countrymen? I'm just asking, because the rhetoric i read causes me too stop and wonder more often than not!

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xylene 4/19/2007 6:34:16 AM

Panther, if your American, then you are a fellow countryman. I don't doubt Americans want to defeat terrorists. I believe many Americans believe in this war. I also believe many Americans that do not believe in the reasons for going to war want to win. Much better to win a war than lose one. I have lost confidence in Bush's leadership and do not feel this war can be won with him as President.

If Al Gore had won in 2000 and done same actions I would be opposed to him too. I would disappove of the way Gore is handling the war. It is not an issue of politics. Makes no difference if he his Republican or Democrat. The way this war was excecuted, the way the occupation was run, the way the insurgency has been fought have been wrong. A sitting president rejects the advice of allies, the UN, and his top Pentagon generals. Nothing wrong with that, but the president better be sure what he is doing right. When the occupation began and there was relative calm but no plan, we restricted foriegn firms from bidding on contracts. It was a game of favorites not a determined effort to rebuild. The situation has gotten worse. A bi-partisan Iraq Study Group issues suggestions and the president rejects the proposals. I'm at a loss. We have a president that has refused advice before the war and went to war anyway. He continues to reject advice. He will not meet with regular American public. In all his appearences he is with a captured audience of military members or cadets. The college students at Berkley and Columbia are American citizens too, but this president is afraid to meet in a townhall where dissent may rear it's ugly head.

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displacedjim 4/19/2007 8:29:40 AM

So if civilian casualty counts don't dwindle away over the course of days and even several months, that means the current campaign strategy isn't "working"? If that's what many Americans are going to use as their metric for "winning," and what the media is going to lead with, then we've lost. It is a simple matter for the terrorists to blow up civilians, and even if they were ever reduced to a few dozen active personnel, they'll still be able to. Guess what? There will be bombs and civilians blowing up in Iraq for years to come, maybe decades or more--regardless of what we do. I reject daily or even monthly civilian casualty counts due to terrorism as being a valid metric for measuring our success.

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PlatypusMaximus 4/19/2007 9:03:31 AM

Gates addressed this part of the problem recently. He says there are not thousands of people in Iraq killing eachother. You have AQ, former Saddam Baathists, Death squads and criminals. You do not have any mass Iraqi movements.

MERMI posts many videos of captured terrorists and insurgents in Iraq (youtube). Typically its "We got $1500/month to kill at least 10 people....not Sunnis...not Shiites....not Americans ...not Oil infrastructure, not military assests....not Police....not even men....just people... for money...and the money comes from SA as much as it does Iran. If we lose, it will be that the left hindered the war effort with every chance they got....oh yes they did, and because Iraqi society was a corrupt, inept, evil, rascist society that was never worth saving in the first place...for which Bush is to blame, but we should still pump their oil to pay for trying. They had me fooled as well. That saddam statue was on the ground LESS than 1 second before Iraqis were defacing it.

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PlatypusMaximus 4/19/2007 9:04:55 AM

shoulda cluster-MOAB'd Najaf in 03

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PlatypusMaximus 4/19/2007 9:14:52 AM

Everytime! My eyes know how to spell racist...my mind makes me type ras cist...

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shek 4/19/2007 10:45:33 AM

eu4ea,

The surge is less about the increase in troop levels and more about the fact that we are finally waging a doctrinally sound counterinsurgency campaign. It seems as if you want to put the goalposts at an unfeasible distance, i.e. there shouldn't be any spectacular events whatsoever. Additionally, quantity is not quality, and thus, to simply quote aggregate amounts of casualties or to obscure progress by headline grabbing incidents is to skew the reality of progress, or lack thereof. What has happened to the level of EJKs? How is the insurgency faring in the province (Al Anbar) that was their bread and butter for the past 4 years? What is the state of the union for ISI? How is AQI's relations with IAI, AAS, etc.? What does JAM think of the fact that US forces now have combat outposts (COPs) setup in Sadr City? What is state of unity of command within JAM?

I'm curious as to your thoughts on all the questions I posed. I don't find the recent suicide terrorism streak to be a particularly positive event, but in the context of everything that is going on, it is not proof that the "surge" is not working. It is geared very specifically to grab headlines, and while factual, when not placed in context, provides a conclusion that is not based on ALL the facts. Also, a handful of the recent attacks can be placed into the desperation category, specifically, those occuring in Al Anbar, where AQI has been reduced to fighting a battle of coercion to try and remain a presence in Al Anbar.

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Plutarch 4/19/2007 10:58:02 AM

So if civilian casualty counts don't dwindle away over the course of days and even several months that means the current campaign strategy isn't "working"? If that's what many Americans are going to use as their metric for "winning," and what the media is going to lead with, then we've lost. It is a simple matter for the terrorists to blow up civilians, and even if they were ever reduced to a few dozen active personnel, they'll still be able to. Guess what? There will be bombs and civilians blowing up in Iraq for years to come, maybe decades or more--regardless of what we do. I reject daily or even monthly civilian casualty counts due to terrorism as being a valid metric for measuring our success.

That’s not exactly an accurate depiction of Iraq today. At some point in the future there may be several dozen terrorists who are still committed to killing, but the number of people they kill and the number of attacks they perpetrate will be dramatically decreased from where it is today. ETA has several dozen members and when was the last time one of their bombs killed more than a dozen people? Just a decrease in the number of attacks and the number of civilians killed is what we are looking for. Yesterday at least 240 Iraqi civilians were killed. How is that considered progress? If you don’t consider civilian casualty counts a valid metric in measuring success what do you consider DJ; insurgent attacks? Those have also increased over time. The number of US troop casualties has also gone up. So how do you measure success against an insurgency? Body counts of insurgents; shall we play the Vietnam game again? What else would you consider; you can’t really hold and control territory when fighting an urban insurgency, as the insurgents have proven time after time they will simply pick up and move somewhere else. Falluja was supposed to “break the back” of the insurgency, and now it seems like a footnote in this long, sad war.

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xylene 4/19/2007 11:17:35 AM

I'm not sure what other measure we can use against terrorism. The goal is to kill and/or capture them and stop their attacks. Since we do not know who they are or what their official number of members are, tallying the number of insurgents killed does not give us a good idea if we are making progress. A drop in the number of attacks and the number of innocents killed on a daily or weekly basis seems like the only measure we can use.

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