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Subject: Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan
Roman    6/13/2004 8:11:37 PM
This is not a moral comparison between the two. I am merely comparing their military success thus far.


Iraq has a land area of 432,000 square kilometers and is mostly flat. The maximum elevation is a respectable 3,611 meters, but the mountains are concentrated in the north in the quiet Kurdistan right by the Turkish and Iranian borders. Because the Kurds are not part of the insurgency, the US military does not have to operate extensively in the mountainous region.

Afghanistan has a land area of 647,500 kilometers and the terrain is extremely rugged. The maximum elevation is a ridiculous 7,485 meters and mountains cover most of the country. There are some plains in the south, but these two have to be accessed through the mountains if you are moving or supplying from the territory of the former Soviet Union.


Iraq has a population of 24.7 million people of whom about 20% are Kurds, Turkmen or other ethnic groups friendly towards the US. Another 60%-65% are Shi?a Arabs, who are at least somewhat friendly to the US. Only about 15%-20% of the population is Sunni Arab (less than 5 million people in total) ? the ethnic group truly hostile to the Coalition troops.

Afghanistan currently has a population of 28.7 million people who are split up among a plethora of nationalities, but all of these ethnic groups were hostile to Soviet forces. At the time of the Soviet occupation, Afghanistan?s population was about 20 million people including the displaced.


USSR completed its invasion of Afghanistan very quickly at the end of 1979 and lost 86 dead in total that year. This can be seen as the equivalent of the period of ?major combat operations? that cost the Coalition 170 troops killed and were declared as being over by President Bush on May 1, 2003.
In 1980 the USSR suffered 1,484 dead (both combat and non-combat deaths included), while the first year of occupation of Iraq (May 2003 to April 2004) cost the Coalition 697 killed (not including allied Iraqi?s ? the Soviet figures also do not include allied Afghans). This means that the Soviet Union suffered just over 2 times the casualties in its first year of occupation of Afghanistan as the Coalition suffered in the first year of occupation of Iraq.
The worst year for the USSR in terms of deaths was 1984. During that year the Soviet Forces suffered 2,343 dead ? just over 3 times the number that the Coalition has suffered in its first year of occupation of Iraq.
In total the USSR lost 13,833 soldiers during 10 years of occupation of Afghanistan the peak strength of Soviet Forces in Afghanistan was about 100,000 troops (compared to 150,000-160,000 Coalition troops currently in Iraq). That is an average death of 1,383 soldiers per year for Soviet forces ? less than 2 times the loss of Coalition troops in the first year.

Looking at the above comparison and taking into account the fact that weapon technology has advanced enormously during the past 15 years, it seems to me that the Soviet army did not do all that badly in Afghanistan after all! I used to hear a lot of comments about how the Afghanistan war showed that the Soviet army was a paper tiger and would not in fact stand a chance against the West at the time, but looking at the Afghanistan war with the perspective of the current occupation of Iraq by a super-modern army 15-25 year later (and thus 15-25 years of technology advancement), that appears to have been a false conclusion on that basis alone. Again I reiterate ? looking at the situation objectively the Soviet forces in Afghanistan have done comparatively well militarily given the circumstances (though politically the invasion was a disaster [but then again so is the Iraqi one]), or else one would be forced to conclude that the US forces in Iraq are doing militarily very poorly, which is a conclusion I do not agree with (though both forces were/are not doing well politically/PR).
 
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American Kafir    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/13/2004 10:32:19 PM
Although the Iraqi Republican Guard and attendant forces were pretty much crippled from jump after Desert Storm and 12 years of attrition, they were still fielding a bigger and better order of battle at the start of Operation: Iraqi Freedom than Afghanistan was when the Soviet Union invaded. There's too much disparity between the quality of forces between the 2003 Iraqi and 1979 Afghani militaries to compare the military successes of the American and Soviet occupations. I don't think correcting for technological advances is going to make the comparison any more accurate. Maybe somebody can wargame a Russia vs. Iraq 2003 scenario, and tell us the difference?
 
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Roman    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/13/2004 11:07:47 PM
Sure, but I am not so much looking at the actual invasion - that was a piece of cake for both the Coalition in Iraq and Soviets in Afghanistan - I am looking at the subsequent occupation and guerrila war. Afghan Peshmurga mujahideen were supplied with a vast quantity of arms, jihadists, money and given training by the US (especially CIA), Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. Iraqi guerrilas do not have this advantage (though they do have enough weapons from Saddam's stocks not to need it) as any Syrian or other support is miniscule in comparison. I am not saying that the US is doing badly - what I am trying to point out is that Soviet Forces did a lot better (militarily) in Afghanistan than they are given credit for. US forces are (militarily) doing well in Iraq - but they are given credit for it, while Soviet occupation of Afghanistan is (perhaps wrongfully given what I have outlined above) portrayed as unmitigated military disaster. As to political aptitude of both occupiers, no comment... let us restrict this to military success alone.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 12:03:02 AM
First Point: how accurate are those numbers? The Soviets were often loose with the truth. Second Point: The Soviets lost over a hundred aircraft in Afghanistan. That is certainly something that indicates they have done more poorly than the US.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 12:11:43 AM
Says here 22,000 Soviets killed: link
 
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Roman    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 1:00:01 AM
"First Point: how accurate are those numbers? The Soviets were often loose with the truth." I would guess the statistics are reasonably accurate - they were released well after the war when the Soviet Union no longer existed. During the war, the Soviets reported much, much lower losses... "Second Point: The Soviets lost over a hundred aircraft in Afghanistan. That is certainly something that indicates they have done more poorly than the US. " Well, they lost over a hundred tanks, over a hundred aircraft, 333 helicopters, thousand APCs/IFVs, and 10,000 trucks - yes these are major losses. Unfortunately, I do not know anything about US losses of equipment in Iraq and these statistics do not appear to be available, so it I cannot compare on that basis. Also, nobody is dounbting that the US is doing better in Iraq - the question is how much better? I am arguing that given the larger size of Afghanistan with vastly more difficult terrain and with support of a superpower supplying stinger missiles and other weaponry, the Soviets did not do nearly as badly as they were portrayed to have done - except in one area - sanitation. Their sanitation and lack of vaccination was absolutely terrible - they had over 400,000 'injured' (10 times the rate of US injured in Iraq - if we do it on a yearly basis), the vast majority of whom were classified as 'wounded' due to diseases such as Hepatitis or Typhoid. "Says here 22,000 Soviets killed: link " That is an article from Wikipedia - an 'encyclopaedia' that anyone can contribute to and if not corrected by someone else the information stays there... Interestingly they claim to be using Soviet sources - so I truly do not know how they came up with that figure...
 
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American Kafir    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 8:36:53 AM
The reason I would want to "transplant" the 1979 Soviet force into a scenario wargame against 2004 Iraqi forces would be to gain a measure of what their invasion success would be. This would necessarily set most political considerations aside, as I think we're talking about ass-kicking capabilities rather than whether or not the Iraqi people would rise against Soviet communism if it replaced the Baathist government. Communism does enjoy some support in Iraq, though the CP-Iraq was repressed fiercely under Saddam's rule. Too many foxes in the henhouse, as it were. Another consideration would be logistics. Iraq is a lot closer to the old USSR than the United States is, and Afghanistan was even closer - right across the border. I think any way you slice it, the US occupation of Iraq is going much better than the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, at a level that makes the comparison rather imbalanced. The US invaded a country on the other side of the planet that it had maintained air supremacy over much of for 12 years, and aside from a minority of insurgents and foreign terrorists, was recieved with welcome when Saddam's government was toppled. On the other hand, the Soviets crossed their southern border to prop up a puppet regime that had been overthrown by a military coup. They didn't have many friends on the ground among the general Afghani population. And still don't.
 
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Ashley-the-man    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 3:01:12 PM
Maybe the first stage of the anlaysis should be to compare the levels of success in the campaigns in Afganistan. The United States reached a large part of their objective with relatively low losses. Remember the critics at the time compared the losses encounted by the Soviets and predicted many thousands of US casualties. Our loss totals in Iraq are as much our doing as they our enemies. We could cordon off areas like Falugia and let the Sunnis kill each other. In Afganistan, the whole population resited the Soviets. The United States is in the crossfire till we decide to pull back. If we decided to tolerate a couple of thousand more US dead, we could do a lot to severely impact Baathist resistance. Of course we would take out tens of thousands of people, but the campaign would do a lot to bring more stability in Irak. Not that we would be loved, but the followup government would have less resistance.
 
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FJV    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 4:50:24 PM
The Russians didn't do that bad. After all the British were also kicked out of Afghanistan twice if I'm not mistaken. Guess the difference is that the Afghanis are making good money of the US (*1 combined with a weariness of war. (*1 I hear stories of Afghanis selling everything from Chrismas trees to handmade chess sets. Guess that would make them reluctant to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. PS I hesitate to compare Afghanistan with Iraq. Seems to be comparing apples to pears
 
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Ashley-the-man    RE:Comparison of US Occupation of Iraq and Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan   6/14/2004 5:49:27 PM
"I hesitate to compare Afghanistan with Iraq. Seems to be comparing apples to pears" Except that Afganistan was attacked by the subject countries within about 20 years apart with comparable weapons. We had different goals, but Afganis are not necessarily sympathetic to who invades them. "(*1 I hear stories of Afghanis selling everything from Chrismas trees to handmade chess sets. Guess that would make them reluctant to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs." Perhaps there are some floral extracts that will make it back to the states.
 
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Sheikh       6/10/2007 1:17:33 PM
There are number of myths around the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and most of them came to this thread. "Afghanistan currently has a population of 28.7 million people who are split up among a plethora of nationalities, but all of these ethnic groups were hostile to Soviet forces." It's not exactly true. Most people were indifferent or friendly to russians at the beginning. Most of who represent urban population was still freindly after they has left. There were some reasons for that making also the difference between Soviet and present Coalition occupation of Afghanistan. Soviets were friendly to a population, they were not only troops but teachers, doctors and engineers who really help people. You may easily find on the Web some pics of earlier 80's Kabul. It wasn't shine as Dubai that time, but look at these ruins now. Soviets also didn't kill people whose car was too fast or slower than their convoy. 'Dolly bombs', chemical weapons are complete BS came from CIA used Soviet occupation in a PR campaign against russians to shock libs such as most other myths. The only foreigners who are not hiding in Kabul are russians today. Russian passport makes you welcome and gives discount at hotels there. Coalition are friendly if there are reporters close. For all the other time troops are focused of their safety destroying everything and everyone who are they reasonably or not suspect as a manace to their personal space. It may be a traffic jam or woman just wearing national dress. What was insurgency for Soviets? It was mostly tribal people who faithfully believed that the communism is evil and Soviets are kids of Satan. If you are agree with them please still do not applause. It was the same way they hate democracy and Coalition now. It's cause you are Christian or atheist, cause they were trying to treat their children who's life and soul only belongs to Allah, cause trying to teach women etc. Those people also were inspired by thousands of islamists coming from all the world to took part in insurgency. Another difference is more than $1.2 Bln CIA invested there to make it back-Vietnam. It's actually a conflict to compare instead of Iraq. Al-Qaeda and Taleban were established by CIA that time to fight Soviets. There were delivered the best weapons US had. That is a cause of Soviet casualties including a number of aircrafts lost. Today anti-Coalition insurgent has more public support but his only weapon is AK-47. He has nothing to fight a tank or helicopter. Russians also differently consider losses in vehicles. It not necessarily combat loss as we used to consider. It is any truck, car, armoror aircraft irrevocably failed on any reason including natural deterioration or accident. As for a technological advances it doesn't makes much defference in guerilla war. Soviets had that time same as the US had at the first Gulf War. GPS and SATCOMs wasn't used so wide that time. No more difference. It's my view comparing Soviet and Coalition occupation in Afghanistan. I believe it is quite the same in Iraq despite of Iraqi much more complex society.
 
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historynut       6/11/2007 12:39:27 PM

There are number of myths around the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and most of them came to this thread.

"Afghanistan currently has a population of 28.7 million people who are split up among a plethora of nationalities, but all of these ethnic groups were hostile to Soviet forces."

It's not exactly true. Most people were indifferent or friendly to russians at the beginning. Most of who represent urban population was still freindly after they has left. There were some reasons for that making also the difference between Soviet and present Coalition occupation of Afghanistan. Soviets were friendly to a population, they were not only troops but teachers, doctors and engineers who really help people. You may easily find on the Web some pics of earlier 80's Kabul. It wasn't shine as Dubai that time, but look at these ruins now. Soviets also didn't kill people whose car was too fast or slower than their convoy. 'Dolly bombs', chemical weapons are complete BS came from CIA used Soviet occupation in a PR campaign against russians to shock libs such as most other myths. The only foreigners who are not hiding in Kabul are russians today. Russian passport makes you welcome and gives discount at hotels there.
Coalition are friendly if there are reporters close. For all the other time troops are focused of their safety destroying everything and everyone who are they reasonably or not suspect as a manace to their personal space. It may be a traffic jam or woman just wearing national dress.

What was insurgency for Soviets? It was mostly tribal people who faithfully believed that the communism is evil and Soviets are kids of Satan. If you are agree with them please still do not applause. It was the same way they hate democracy and Coalition now. It's cause you are Christian or atheist, cause they were trying to treat their children who's life and soul only belongs to Allah, cause trying to teach women etc. Those people also were inspired by thousands of islamists coming from all the world to took part in insurgency.

Another difference is more than $1.2 Bln CIA invested there to make it back-Vietnam. It's actually a conflict to compare instead of Iraq. Al-Qaeda and Taleban were established by CIA that time to fight Soviets. There were delivered the best weapons US had. That is a cause of Soviet casualties including a number of aircrafts lost. Today anti-Coalition insurgent has more public support but his only weapon is AK-47. He has nothing to fight a tank or helicopter. Russians also differently consider losses in vehicles. It not necessarily combat loss as we used to consider. It is any truck, car, armoror aircraft irrevocably failed on any reason including natural deterioration or accident.

As for a technological advances it doesn't makes much defference in guerilla war. Soviets had that time same as the US had at the first Gulf War. GPS and SATCOMs wasn't used so wide that time. No more difference.

It's my view comparing Soviet and Coalition occupation in Afghanistan. I believe it is quite the same in Iraq despite of Iraqi much more complex society.
Having know people from Afghanistan (and Eastren Europe) that recived less then nice treatment from the Soviet's some of your information may be incorrect. If you were a party member you were treated nice. If you were not a party member they could do what they wanted. Seeing the number of people I talked to I don't think they were all lying. I don't think any of the kids I grew up with that came from Eastren Europe were lying. Maybe you should talk to some of the people that recived less then nice treatment. Could explain why parts of Eastren Europe do not want the Russians to return.
As for it being only tribal people fighting Russia. After seeing the number of Afghan college students that left to return to Afghanistan to fight there were some none tribal people fighting.
But I can only go by what people that were there told me happened to them or there family. I think the maybe where you are getting your information from is overlooking a few things.

 
 
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Sheikh       6/12/2007 4:20:56 AM
As for East Europeans that is frustration. Communism was a problem not for Eastern Europe but as we know also for Soviets. Unlike today communism was popular in Eastern Europe after WWII. That is why communists took power there. Soviets also occupied Austria after WWII but communism hasn't been popular there so they gone with peace. One day Eastern Europeans has felt the disadvantages of comunism. They were envy to Western Europeans for their wealth and freedom and started to blame russians for their own East European choise. They were ignoring the fact that it was not only Soviets but their leadership to be blamed for communism and their own majority who has supported communism. Some of those communist leaders has changed colour and still play. They like and promote the idea to blame russians who are not even Soviets today for a choise they commonly did. That's why they don't want russians who are not even communists now to return. But look at Eastern Europe again. Today they are disappointed in EU and globalisation and blames Western Europe for their new problems. Leftists are gaining power there not in russia. Let's go back Afghanistan. I can't see much difference in facts between our points. If i told most people supported Soviets i haven't mean the whole people of Afghanistan. Of course it was war and there were dissatisfied not only among tribal people. As for muslim students as i told they were inspired with PR such as Soviet 'dolly bombs' and chemical weapons that are never exist in fact. Those students from UK and US was also already a part of the West hostile to Soviets. As for my sources. I'm living in UK but Pakistani born. My parents had close ties to Afghanistan and my elder brother has fought Soviets. They shot him and took him. He has a rifle and it was clear he is insurgent. But they took him to hospital and return him to life. They ask him to promise he will never take a gun against them and he said 'Yes'. He never broke his word. Russians are still respected in Afghanistan unlike the Coalition. They were not coming to bomb only. If there was a home bombed they built three homes instead. I'm not posting here to tell how good was Soviets. Any occupation or war is too bad and that wasn't an exception. I just don't like black and white. I do respect russians and don't like if one paint them black while other side is always white even if it does same or worse.
 
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Sheikh       6/12/2007 4:29:33 AM
As for East Europeans that is frustration. Communism was a problem not for Eastern Europe but as we know also for Soviets. Unlike today communism was popular in Eastern Europe after WWII. That is why communists took power there. Soviets also occupied Austria after WWII but communism hasn't been popular there so they gone with peace. One day Eastern Europeans has felt the disadvantages of comunism. They were envy to Western Europeans for their wealth and freedom and started to blame russians for their own East European choise. They were ignoring the fact that it was not only Soviets but their leadership to be blamed for communism and their own majority who has supported communism. Some of those communist leaders has changed colour and still play. They like and promote the idea to blame russians who are not even Soviets today for a choise they commonly did. That's why they don't want russians who are not even communists now to return. But look at Eastern Europe again. Today they are disappointed in EU and globalisation and blames Western Europe for their new problems. Leftists are gaining power there not in russia. Let's go back Afghanistan. I can't see much difference in facts between our points. If i told most people supported Soviets i haven't mean the whole people of Afghanistan. Of course it was war and there were dissatisfied not only among tribal people. As for muslim students as i told they were inspired with PR such as Soviet 'dolly bombs' and chemical weapons that are never exist in fact. Those students from UK and US was also already a part of the West hostile to Soviets. As for my sources. I'm living in UK but Pakistani born. My parents had close ties to Afghanistan and my elder brother has fought Soviets. They shot him and took him. He has a rifle and it was clear he is insurgent. But they took him to hospital and return him to life. They ask him to promise he will never take a gun against them and he said 'Yes'. He never broke his word. Russians are still respected in Afghanistan unlike the Coalition. They were not coming to bomb only. If there was a home bombed they built three homes instead. I'm not posting here to tell how good was Soviets. Any occupation or war is too bad and that wasn't an exception. I just don't like black and white. I do respect russians and don't like if one paint them black while other side is always white even if it does same or worse.
 
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historynut       6/12/2007 10:41:30 AM

As for East Europeans that is frustration. Communism was a problem not for Eastern Europe but as we know also for Soviets. Unlike today communism was popular in Eastern Europe after WWII. That is why communists took power there. Soviets also occupied Austria after WWII but communism hasn't been popular there so they gone with peace. One day Eastern Europeans has felt the disadvantages of comunism. They were envy to Western Europeans for their wealth and freedom and started to blame russians for their own East European choise. They were ignoring the fact that it was not only Soviets but their leadership to be blamed for communism and their own majority who has supported communism. Some of those communist leaders has changed colour and still play. They like and promote the idea to blame russians who are not even Soviets today for a choise they commonly did. That's why they don't want russians who are not even communists now to return. But look at Eastern Europe again. Today they are disappointed in EU and globalisation and blames Western Europe for their new problems. Leftists are gaining power there not in russia.

Let's go back Afghanistan. I can't see much difference in facts between our points. If i told most people supported Soviets i haven't mean the whole people of Afghanistan. Of course it was war and there were dissatisfied not only among tribal people. As for muslim students as i told they were inspired with PR such as Soviet 'dolly bombs' and chemical weapons that are never exist in fact. Those students from UK and US was also already a part of the West hostile to Soviets.

As for my sources. I'm living in UK but Pakistani born. My parents had close ties to Afghanistan and my elder brother has fought Soviets. They shot him and took him. He has a rifle and it was clear he is insurgent. But they took him to hospital and return him to life. They ask him to promise he will never take a gun against them and he said 'Yes'. He never broke his word. Russians are still respected in Afghanistan unlike the Coalition. They were not coming to bomb only. If there was a home bombed they built three homes instead.

I'm not posting here to tell how good was Soviets. Any occupation or war is too bad and that wasn't an exception. I just don't like black and white. I do respect russians and don't like if one paint them black while other side is always white even if it does same or worse.




Unlike today communism was popular in Eastern Europe after WWII. That is why communists took power there
Communism was imposed on Eastren Europe. The people who opposed it were sent to camps or killed. Can you explain how the all the prodemocracy leaders disappeared after the Russians came in. One that had survived years fighting the Germans. Not just in one country but in all the countries in Eastern Europe.
Like I said talk to the people with the stories.
Let's go back Afghanistan. I can't see much difference in facts between our points. If i told most people supported Soviets i haven't mean the whole people of Afghanistan.
To me to be most of the people would mean over 50% of the people which it was not. It started out around 20% and went downhill from there.
Of course it was war and there were dissatisfied not only among tribal people. As for muslim students as i told they were inspired with PR such as Soviet 'dolly bombs' and chemical weapons that are never exist in fact. Those students from UK and US was also already a part of the West hostile to Soviets.
Strange that if there were no 'dolly bombs' and chemical weapons that you can find people injured by them or had family members killed by them. For something that never existed they sure kill or wounded a lot of people. I find it interesting how everyone that fought the Russian's was dumb (tribal people) or misled (PR). After hearing them talk I think maybe it was because the Russian's did bad things. But then I can only go by the word of people that were there, the people that had bad things done to them.
 
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PowerPointRanger    Key points:   6/12/2007 2:59:03 PM
I don't think simply comparing the casualties tells you much (although clearly the US has suffered fewer).
Let's look at some other metrics.
 
                                        USSR/Afghanistan                                                         US/Iraq
Time                                  10 Years                                                                      4+ years
Civilian Casualties             ~1,400,000                                                                     ~60,000
Refugees                           ~6,000,000                                                   ~2 million (external)/ ~1.7 million (internal)
Economic Growth             GNP down 33-50%                                                  GNP up 90%          
Annual Cost (Occupier)     $20 billion                                                                  ~$125 billion
Annual Cost (Resistance)   $2.1 billion                                                            $70 million-$200 million     
 
link
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link
link
link
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Some of the most striking differences are:
1) Dramatically fewer civilian casualties (in spite of the common use of "human shields" by insurgents).
2) US emphasis on economic growth vs USSR emphasis on economic destruction
3) US spending lots more money
4) Insurgents getting less money
5) Fewer refugees (especially in relative terms)
 
From this we can infer:
1) Different strategies in play ("Slash & Burn" by USSR vs "Hearts & Minds" for US)
2) More targeted war
3) Smaller resistance
 
The above metric that carries the most weight as far as I am concerned is the economic growth, which will be the main determiner of how stable/capable the new Iraqi government will become.
 
 
 
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