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Subject: World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?
SoldierOfFortune    12/6/2004 2:32:55 AM
In 1939, Germany and Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact. What if Germany never invaded the Soviet Union but used it as an ally to attack the Allied forces of UK and USA. I was just wondering in a war between Germany, Soviet Union, Japan vs USA and UK. Who would win?
 
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F22    RE:World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?   12/6/2004 2:55:34 AM
Neither Hitler nor Stalin planned to honor the pact. If Hitler had not attacked in 1941, there is indication that Stalin would have attacked Germany in 1942 or 1943. But let's assume the USSR did not attack, and remained neutral. From June 1940 to December 1941, UK would face Germany alone. Without the distraction of Operation Barbarosa, Germany could have concentrated the bulk of its forces against UK. The UK would have to stave off a German invasion until US help arrived. The German army wouldn't be much help sitting on the French coast as the Germans did not have any decent amphibious capability. But the full might of the Luftwaffe would have been unleashed against UK, and the U-boats would still have been devastating. Even so, I think UK survives the Battle of Britain and holds off the Germans. Goring's strategy was poor, and would still be poor in this scenario, but with more planes. UK is saved, but 300 German divisions in Europe would be hard to overcome. I think B-29s and the A-bomb and would have been decisive. Otherwise a stalemate, or a long war of attrition ending in US/UK victory. The war in the Pacific would go pretty much as the actual history. I don't see the USSR fighting with the Germans and Japanese as allies. There was too much hatred between them.
 
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Yimmy    RE:World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?   12/6/2004 8:31:19 AM
I believe Stalin did intend to honour the treaty with germany, Stalin being gobsmacked on hearing that Hitler had invaded, and leaving for a holiday! If WWII started in such a manner that the USSR and Germany were allied, with Russia invading Finland or what have you as Germany invaded Poland; the two nations would have won WWII.
 
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Yimmy    RE:World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?   12/6/2004 8:32:17 AM
Also, if Hitler had Stalin on his side, he may not have bothered with Japan, whcih could have meant the US would never have got involved.
 
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A Patriot    RE:World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?   12/6/2004 6:55:05 PM
therfore not being a World War
 
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F22    RE:World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?--Yimmy   12/6/2004 7:33:09 PM
I believe Stalin did intend to honour the treaty with germany, Stalin being gobsmacked on hearing that Hitler had invaded, and leaving for a holiday! Perhaps he did intend to honour (see, I used UK spelling) the treaty, but it's still hard to imagine them as allies. I think in time they would have eventually turned on each other. If WWII started in such a manner that the USSR and Germany were allied, with Russia invading Finland or what have you as Germany invaded Poland; the two nations would have won WWII. I think Stalin would have left Finland alone. They gave him a tough fight in the 1939 - 1940 Winter War. You're probably right though. Germany and USSR as allies would have beaten UK, but the RN and RAF would have made it a long, tough fight. On the other hand, if Bader avoids capture and eventually takes over Fighter Command, then RAF waxes Luftwaffe big time and war ends in stalemate. :o)
 
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F22    RE:World War II: Germany and Soviet Union vs. USA and UK: Who would win?--Yimmy   12/6/2004 7:43:37 PM
Also, if Hitler had Stalin on his side, he may not have bothered with Japan, whcih could have meant the US would never have got involved. I think the US still gets involved. Here's why: 1. US was already involved via Lend-Lease. Roosevelt clearly backed UK and would have provided whatever aid he could to save UK. 2. Roosevelt and Churchill had already agreed on the "Germany first" strategy in August 1941, prior to US entry in the war. Roosevelt was gradually pushing the US towards more active involvement. 3. US, UK, and Canada were already beginning to coodinate defenses against the U-boat threat. It was only a matter of time before Germany gave Roosevelt the excuse he needed to go to war. In fact, I do believe there was an engagement between an American destroyer and a German U-boat in the months prior to Pearl Harbor. In the end, I think US involvement was inevitable, the only variable being timing. But if US stays neutral, then UK loses.
 
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AchtungLagg    soviet airborne operation in UK   12/6/2004 11:16:13 PM
actually a credible theory out there is that initially, hitler planned to use soviet assistance in operation sealion, utilizing massive soviet airborne divisions under luftwaffe(and of course, additional VVS CAP too) cover to help in an assault on UK. it is also said that hitler wanted the soviets to take maximum casualties and act as a meat shield, weaking russia and keeping germans relatively unscathed, so that later the germans could turn on the soviets. the weaknesses of the soviet military werent *too* well known at the time and hitler may have seriously considered it worthwhile to use soviet airborne divisions based out of the baltic states to land troops in the UK synchraneously with a german amphib operation.
 
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F22    RE:soviet airborne operation in UK   12/7/2004 11:42:12 PM
Interesting theory. That's just the kind of devious plot Hitler would devise. Why do you consider it a credible theory? I wasn't aware that the Red Army had airborne troops.
 
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AlbanyRifles    And how were you going to attack?   12/8/2004 10:27:19 AM
Having looked at all of this, how were the USSR and Germany going to attack the US & UK? In 1939 the Royal Navy & the USN had the two of the most powerful navies in the world. A coastal navy (USSR) with a small surface force and submarine force (Kriegsmarine) was going to be no match for a combined US/UK fleet(s). If you can't get off of the mainland of Europe, how are you going to effectively go to war against the US & UK?
 
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owain    RE:And how were you going to attack?   12/8/2004 10:48:50 AM
I seem to remember seeing film footage of Russian troops holding on to the fuselage of a civvy aeroplane until the unit was ready to disembark and parachute down (not sure when it was taken though) but you have to admit that with all that flak kicking up the RAF ground crews would have had a hard job keeping the runways clear of piles of mince that once resembled a russian para!
 
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