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Subject: War on the Moon
Godofgamblers    10/29/2009 11:57:07 PM
What if alien forces from Pluto occupied the moon.... would we be able to dislodge them?

(PS one restriction, in this scenario you are not allowed to use the Rafale)
 
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Le Zookeeper    no they would be illegal; aliens   10/30/2009 12:12:48 AM
we would offer amnesty and free medical insurance.Besides GOG if they settled from pluto to moon they would be more advanced then us , we could not dislodge them they will destroy us.
 
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Godofgamblers       10/30/2009 12:18:59 AM

we would offer amnesty and free medical insurance.Besides GOG if they settled from pluto to moon they would be more advanced then us , we could not dislodge them they will destroy us.


Yes, but perhaps not so advanced as to make them invincible. They came from Pluto, not from another system. So they have only conventional power sources. My first thought would be nukes, but if they were to set up on the dark side of the moon, how could we strike at them?
 
 
 
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Godofgamblers       10/30/2009 12:22:04 AM
Would it be feasible to send troops? What weapons could they use? if the Japanese, Euros, Russians and the US combined their speace programs, they would have the resources to send a small platoon to the moon.... but to what effect? Mines may be the only weapons they could use.
 
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stbretnco       10/30/2009 2:04:08 AM
All the alien forces would have to do is set up a mass driver and toss a few rocks at the earth.
 
Game, set, match.
 
Being at the bottom of a gravity well can be a bitch.
 
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WarNerd       10/30/2009 6:08:35 AM

It would be easier for the Earth to colonize Mercury than for Pluto to colonize the Earth's Moon.  On Pluto helium and hydrogen are liquids, most the rocks are nitrogen with occasional outcroppings of igneous oxygen.  Water would be their equivalent of steel.  Even deep underground the average temperature of the Moon is such that it would be like us living in the throat of an erupting volcano.  Plus the Moon has a surface gravity greater than 2x Pluto's.

 

The best thing to do if we found them trying to colonize the Moon would be to make contact and offer to swap our labor for their scientific knowledge.  We would not be able to replicate or use their technology except outside a cryogenics lab.
 
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smitty237    Redirection   10/30/2009 3:04:02 PM
Forget about Pluto for a minute, and let's just make it any generic alien race that plants their flag (or whatever) on the Moon and we somehow decide has hostile intentions.  To avoid responses along the lines of  "we wouldn't stand a chance against the aliens...." let's instead throw in a James Bond scenario in which an evil gazillionaire sends a group of mercenaries to the moon and sets up a death ray to rain down terror on the Earth in a blackmail scheme.  My question is what kind of weapons systems in our arsenal would even work on the Moon?  Because of present technology any military force we sent would have to be pretty small in size, and I would assume that they would also have to go light, which would rule out tanks, IFVs, artillery, and the like.  Would modern assault rifles even function on the Moon?  I assume rocket launchers would,  but you wouldn't be able to bring along a bunch of Javelins, TOWs, or Milans.  How would GPS be affected? 
 
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ambush       10/30/2009 3:23:03 PM
We lack the throw weight/lift capcity to send a miltiary force to dislodge aliens from the moon.  Best we coudl hope for is to foritfiy the earth  and :
 
(a) Use what throw weight we have to bombard the moon making it to costly for them to occupy
 
 or
 
(b)  Use the Obama diplomacy approach; grovel and apolgize for offending them and offer to let them have Poland and the Czech Republic if they promise to leave the rest of us alone.
 
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Parmenion       10/30/2009 4:06:38 PM
 
Guns should work in space, providing they're modern guns. (Invading the moon with muskets is out then.) They'll work alot better than on earth in fact, as without air resistance a bullet will go about 5 times faster and have 25 times the kinetic energy.
 
However, you would still want to custom design them as tempratures in space can alternate very quickly between about 3 degrees above absolute zero and hundereds of degress if you're in sunlight. The stresses that would place on the structure of a normal firearm could be orders of magnitude more than they're designed for. A cold gun barrel that was suddenly fired might shatter.
 
But to be honest with current technology a few nukes make more sense than a few Spec Ops teams. The only thing worth having on the moon is Helium 3 and a nukes not going to hurt that. Stealth is basically impossible in space so you want to send the thing fast- and a missile can survive much greater accelerations than people. Your Spec Ops team would be trakced the minute they got close if your enemy has any kind of decent well distributed network of sensors. And stealth on the lunar surface would probably be pretty hard to due to human body heat.
 
If you want to deabte on the setalth thing I'll post a link where alot of experts have gone over it but time is short right now.
 
GPS is fine if you put a satellite or four in orbit. There are other better navigation aids.
 
 
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VelocityVector       10/30/2009 6:57:30 PM

What we should do is invite them to address Congress:  h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MartianUS.jpg.  If they get outta hand, we open up with Slim Whitman . . .

At least according to one of my favorite campy movies.

v^2
 
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french stratege       10/30/2009 9:39:10 PM
What if alien forces from Pluto occupied the moon.... would we be able to dislodge them?
Why dislodge them now since we do not profit by the moon?
Let see if France can not trade with them, benefit of their technology, use them against its earth rivals (including USA)...and sell them some Rafale
 
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Godofgamblers       10/30/2009 11:27:48 PM

I'm not sure about guns, Parm, don't they require oxygen? I suppose you could make catridges with oxygen in them but then again, wouldn't the force of the shot fling you off the moon? I'm not sure though because I have seen films where they are shooting underwater..... But that's impossible too, right?

I remember a bond film (Moonraker?) Where the US was prepared for such a contingency and had units of space marines! I wonder if there is actually such a contingency plan....
 
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Godofgamblers       10/30/2009 11:29:11 PM

What if alien forces from Pluto occupied the moon.... would we be able to dislodge them?


Why dislodge them now since we do not profit by the moon?

Let see if France can not trade with them, benefit of their technology, use them against its earth rivals (including USA)...and sell them some Rafale



hahaha....Just what Pluto needs!
 
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WarNerd       10/31/2009 5:56:32 AM

I'm not sure about guns, Parm, don't they require oxygen? I suppose you could make cartridges with oxygen in them but then again, wouldn't the force of the shot fling you off the moon? I'm not sure though because I have seen films where they are shooting underwater..... But that's impossible too, right?


The propellant used in modern cartridges contains all the oxygen it needs.  In fact, the oxygen in the atmosphere can not even come in contact with the propellant until the bullet leaves the barrel.
 
You can fire a gun underwater, but the increased density and drag reduces the effective range to a few feet at most.  Most guns are best used as a 'bang-stick', ram the muzzle into the target, pull the trigger, and pray it does not blow up in your face because the barrel is full of water.  There are special bullets being worked on that 'supercavitate' and have a longer range, but they appear too have to be fired from air into water in order to achieve enough velocity to create the initial cavity.  Real underwater guns (not the make believe ones in the movies) are built special for the job, fire a long heavy projectile at very low velocities (i.e. a spear or bolt) from a short barrel (you want the projectile to protrude from and seal the end of the barrel to exclude water from entering) and are either single shot or 'pepperbox' designs. 
 
The other alternative is to use a rocket propelled projectile, several of which were designed based on the gyrojet.  Theoretically these can achieve any range by increasing the amount of propellant and burn time, but accuracy and visibility generally limit the useful range to 50 feet (16m) or less.
 
Oh, and if you really want to take out an underwater target bigger than a modest sized fish you will probably need to have either an explosive or poisoned tip.
 
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WarNerd       10/31/2009 6:52:36 AM

Guns should work in space, providing they're modern guns. (Invading the moon with muskets is out then.) They'll work alot better than on earth in fact, as without air resistance a bullet will go about 5 times faster and have 25 times the kinetic energy.

I am not sure where the 5x velocity myth started, but it is simply false.  Actual increase in velocity will be at most a few percent due to the fact that you do not have to push the air out of the barrel ahead of the bullet.  Bullet velocity, and therefore terminal effects, will not decrease with range however and muzzle drop will ~1/6th due to the lower gravity.
 
Also, avoid any weapons with muzzle velocities between 1.6 km/sec and 2.4 km/sec (5250 ft/sec and 7875 ft/sec) because any miss can go into orbit.  Blue on blue casualties are bad, but you would never hear the end of it if you got hit by your own bullet 4+ weeks later.
 
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ambush       10/31/2009 9:44:26 AM




Guns should work in space, providing they're modern guns. (Invading the moon with muskets is out then.) They'll work alot better than on earth in fact, as without air resistance a bullet will go about 5 times faster and have 25 times the kinetic energy.




I am not sure where the 5x velocity myth started, but it is simply false.  Actual increase in velocity will be at most a few percent due to the fact that you do not have to push the air out of the barrel ahead of the bullet.  Bullet velocity, and therefore terminal effects, will not decrease with range however and muzzle drop will ~1/6th due to the lower gravity.

 

Also, avoid any weapons with muzzle velocities between 1.6 km/sec and 2.4 km/sec (5250 ft/sec and 7875 ft/sec) because any miss can go into orbit.  Blue on blue casualties are bad, but you would never hear the end of it if you got hit by your own bullet 4+ weeks later.


While most conventional firearms might function on the moon I think recoil would be problem.  Thanks to Newton and low gravity certain caliber weapons would have the effect of sending their user in the opposite direction and artillery would have to be  firmly anchored.
 
 
 
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