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Subject: Operation Barbarossa: Today's Germany V Today's Russia
bennywombat    8/25/2009 7:53:34 AM
I was just reading on WIKI about operation Barbarossa back in WWII, If Poland was allied to Germany and Belarus allied to russia, would the outcome still be the same as it was back then, would russia smash them or would it be a stalemate. This thread has probably been done to death but i really would like to know...
 
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Godofgamblers       8/26/2009 2:45:22 AM
Impossible to envision!
 
Why would Germany try the same operation twice? Geography and history are against it (what is the position of the Ukraine in all this?)
 
Keep realistic goals and maybe something could be done: Take Kaliningad and stop there. Any further attacks would be overextending your forces.
 
Keep in mind the lessons learnt during the Polish Soviet War: let the Russians be the ones to overextend themselves, win thru intel and maneuverability; use geography to your benefit.
 
Don't trek into Mother Russia Napoleon style. Been there, done that.
 
 
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ambush       8/26/2009 4:36:12 PM

I agree that this is impossible to envision.

 

Firs there is the politics

 Germany lack the political will to confront Russia over almost anything due in a large part to the country?s dependence on Russian Natural Gas.  Merkle has practically had Putin?s c@ck in her mouth over issues like expanded NATO membership and Georgia.

 

Lack of popular will. Germany is one of the last Western Powers that still has military conscription and about 30% of the population declares themselves has conscientious objectors.  There is hardly  enough of a war like attitude to support an invasion of Eastern Europe.  Heck you cannot even get popular support for a force in Afghanistan.

 

Military.  Germany is better equipped on a per item basis than Russia but they do not have a big enough military and lack the force projection/logistics capability on their own to support an invasion of Russia

 
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Parmenion       8/30/2009 12:00:52 PM
 

This is the only way I can think of where a conflict between these nations occurs:

 

If there were to be a confrontation with where Russia would face Germany on vaguely the same front as before it would be over Ukraine. Ukraine is increasingly becoming independent of Russia while Russia feels that Ukraine should essentially be a province of a Russian empire. Dmitry Medvedev recently wrote an open letter condemning the current unpopular leader of Ukraine in a bid to influence the election- I am trying to remember the name of the man who said "Without Ukraine, Russia is not an Empire, with Ukraine, Russia is automatically an Empire." or words to that effect.

 

I know he was in the US state department and was fairly well respected but I can't find the article.

 

Germany and the other EU powers want a strong independent Ukraine as a counterweight to Russia and as an alternate source of gas- I think they just finished another pipeline through Ukraine, but again I'd have to goal and find the article.

 

Now after Georgia, we have precedents for Russia using force to knock it's satellite states into line.

 

Ukraine may be a much more formidable prospect than Georgia- but the Kremlin doesn't think in these terms- they're too used to getting their own way.

 

So it's conceivable that some move of further independence could prompt Russia into finding a pretence to attack Ukraine.

 

Ukraine applying for EU or NATO membership would be a good one. Let?s say EU membership since the Kremlin isn?t stupid enough to pick a fight with the US.

 

Now the question is- do Germany and her EU allies have the balls to intervene?

 

The Kremlin will never attack if they believe the answer is yes because then they're fighting Germany, Ukraine, and Poland for starters before we decide what  the Scandinavians will do- let alone Britain which could depend on gas for 70% of demand soon, or France- the whole EU could join in. It?s not cost effective.

 

So if Russia attacks it will do so believing the EU powers will not have the temerity to intervene.

  

For there to be a war at all, Russia has to have miscalculated dramatically. I believe this is possible as the Russians may mistake the European preference for using ?soft power? rather than overt military intervention as opposed to other great powers for cowardice. One can imagine ?We shall not go gently into the night? style speeches being made in Warsaw and Berlin- because if the Kremlin is allowed to essentially annex one sovereign nation- where will it go next? It will go west and attempt to reassert it?s spheres of influence in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

 

So then we have Germany and Poland for sure, plus a few other powers quite likely, and Ukraine, against Russia.

 

 

Here?s a map.

 

I leave it to the other posters to give their estimations of what would happen in the conflict.

 

My personal opinion is that it is meaningless to talk of any side ?winning? this conflict in terms of what victory in the original Barbarossa meant. If the Russians do too well then the US, Britain, and France and possibly even China would intervene. In fact they will do inevitably anyway. If the Germans and Polish secure Ukraine and look to do a repeat of Barbarossa, the Russians have their nuclear deterrent, and there would be no political will in Germany or Poland to extend the war beyond the ?just war? premise of defending another nation and into an overt war of aggression.

 

Either way it?s going to end with massive international pressure forcing a ceasefire. The only ?victory? either side can hope for is who Ukraine is aligned to after the war ends- I think it is much more likely Russia be forced to back down completely by the US and others, and Ukraine would soon be a NATO and EU member.

 

However if the war ends with Russia in a very strong position in Ukraine and looking crazy enough to use nuclear force to back up their acquisition- Ukraine might be partitioned or made ?independent? with a government of Russian stooges. Russia has to achieve this before the international community can stop them- so in a bizarre twist it looks as if Russia will be the side on the attack, using ?lightning war? tactics to end the war in a very strong position quickly. If Russia can beat back Germany and Poland and end in a strong enough position then there will not be the political will in the US, and other EU nations to try and push them out a deal favourable to Russia would have to be made.

 

Overall I think that the probabilities aren?t in Russia?s favour since it relies on the international community reacting very slowly and timidly, the US being taken by surprise otherwise they would move assets in to stop the war before it happened, and more logistics and other capabilities as well as brilliant leadership than the Russian military has now. All of these things have precedents and could happen- but all of them together is unlikely.

 

So personally my analysis is that Germany and Poland would ?win? as they only have to delay Russia.

 

 
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Godofgamblers       8/31/2009 2:39:17 AM
I agree with you that Ukraine would be paramount in this scenario. Good quote about the importance of Ukraine as well (and good dylan thomas quote too hehe).
 
I'll leave it to someone who knows the limits of German Army logistics to comment on how far inland the German forces could move into Russia, though i suspect it is not far. I suspect the same goes for the Poles.
 
The problem with the scenario is that the Germans would have no stomach for such a battle except if it were purely on a defensive level. The Poles would love to take territory but truthfully speaking, territory in modern day Ukraine rather than Russia.... So again, this scenario is very hard to envision.
 
(Rumors in the Polish press (Gazeta Wyborcza) that the US is pulling back from missle shield in Poland btw.... don't know if anyone has heard this)
 
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Hugo    Empires and Russians   8/31/2009 4:23:10 AM
 "I am trying to remember the name of the man who said.."
 
?Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be an empire, but with Ukraine, suborned and then subordinated, Russia automatically becomes an empire.?
 
Zbigniew Brzezinski
 
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Parmenion       8/31/2009 7:45:17 AM

 "I am trying to remember the name of the man who said.."

 

?Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be an empire, but with Ukraine, suborned and then subordinated, Russia automatically becomes an empire.?

 

Zbigniew Brzezinski


Thanks Hugo.
And I agree with you GoG- all the Germans and Poles can hope to do logistically and politically is push the Russian back to their own borders. Any more than that and they're overstretched while fighting a multi-million man army with nukes on it's home turf, with no political support to do so.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       8/31/2009 1:29:36 PM
Germany is a Nato member.  Germany will never fight Russia over some crappy East European shitholes.
 
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Parmenion       8/31/2009 3:31:13 PM

Germany is a Nato member.  Germany will never fight Russia over some crappy East European shitholes.

 And this is a great example of the kind of attitude that the Kremlin would count upon if they decided to go empire building.
 
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LB    Non Event   8/31/2009 8:45:13 PM
In 1941 Germany invaded the USSR with 3.5 million men, including it's allies.  The German Army today has about 135,000 men and another 35,000 in the reserves for an army of 6 brigades (+2 airborne) supported by about 40 Typhoons, 50 F-4's, and 200 Tornadoes.  Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons while Germany has none.  Your parameters of "today" preclude this happening.
 
Hell Poland today has 12 brigades (+2 airborne/air assault) and could contribute 120 combat aircraft.  Germany and Poland simply do not have a military structure that allows such fantasies "today".  
 
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Godofgamblers       8/31/2009 10:39:36 PM

Germany is a Nato member.  Germany will never fight Russia over some crappy East European shitholes.

Your attitude toward Eastern Europeans is very disappointing.
What's more it flies in the face of German history.
 
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Parmenion       9/1/2009 7:17:36 AM

In 1941 Germany invaded the USSR with 3.5 million men, including it's allies.  The German Army today has about 135,000 men and another 35,000 in the reserves for an army of 6 brigades (+2 airborne) supported by about 40 Typhoons, 50 F-4's, and 200 Tornadoes.  Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons while Germany has none.  Your parameters of "today" preclude this happening.

 

Hell Poland today has 12 brigades (+2 airborne/air assault) and could contribute 120 combat aircraft.  Germany and Poland simply do not have a military structure that allows such fantasies "today".  


 
LB: I respect a guy who comes out from the offset with numbers. Numbers and analysis and then more numbers are my favourite things for questions like these.

My scenario was more political rather than based on an in depth research of the man power of both armies.
I would be interested though, since you seem to have done the research- how many troops you think Russia could support, logistically speaking? I remember reading someone fairly respected on here post that Georgia was about the limit at the moment.
 
Ukraine is the key and I believe they could contibute forces on about the scale of Poland or Germany if not the same quality.
 
Also I have said that all the allies would have to do is hold off the Russians- not mount an invasion. So the Russians would have to be supporting troops further away than they did in Georgia. -Also just a quibble here- but I read on WIKI that the German reservists amount to something like 300,000 not 35,000? Maybe you were adjusting for what you believe the Germans could realistically support out of that 300,000?
 
I'm not sure the Russians would use nukes except to defend their own territory since Germany and Poland are Nato members- and they would risk UK, French and most importantly US becoming involved. Better a limited war over all they wish to acheive which is Ukraine.
 
I suppose there is also and argument for saying that there would be a full NATO response to Ukraine being invaded- in which case Germany and Poland become only the vanguard of a much more formiddable force.
 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       9/1/2009 1:55:55 PM
That is just the active number of German reserves. (that also regulary go on foreign missions ! Currently ~ 1.000 on the Balkans and Afghanistan) .  Germany has millions of conscripts that fall into the category B reserves. 
 
"Every conscript which has served at least a day in the Bundeswehr is a reservist, unless he is declared ineligible for military service or has made a claim of conscientious objection. Soldiers of enlisted ranks with a limited contract (either 4, 8 or 12 years) or professional soldiers, who have filled their tour of duty, are likewise part of the reserve."
 (...)
Eligibility for compulsory military service for soldiers and other servicemen of low rank ends at the end of the 45th year of age. Thereafter the conscript is no longer part of the reserve. Despite that the appellations "a.D." and/or "d.R." may still be used. Conscription for under-officers and officers lasts until the 60th year of age. Until the 32nd year of age every conscript is subject to military inspection.

link
 
As for military hardware, the main part of Germanies Cold War equipment is still in storage. That includes 300 Leopard 1, hundereds of TOW-Jagdpanzer, ~ 1000 Leopard 2 A4, 500 M-109 Artillery pieces and so on and so on ...  
 
The scenario is still bull, as Germany has nothing, absolutely nothing to gain here,  nobody has yet explained to me why Germany and Poland would fight Russia without Nato,  and its simply not worth discussing.  
PS:  Im deeply sorry for calling Moldavia, Belarus and the Ukraine shitholes, yet I think Iam the only one in this forum that has ever set foot into these countries and I can tell you what I saw was not pretty.
 
 
 
 
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Nasty German Idiot       9/1/2009 4:36:51 PM
A little switch back to reality:
 
DANZIG, POLAND - SEPTEMBER 01: German Chancellor Angela Merkel (front 2nd R) and President of Poland Lech Kaczynski light candles during a remembrance of the German invasion in Poland in 1939 at the cemetary of defenders on September 1, 2009 at Westerplatte Monument in Gdansk, Poland. Today, Merkel and european leaders attend a ceremony marking the 70th anniversary of the start of World War II. (Photo by Guido Bergmann-Pool/Getty Images)
 
 
 
 
 
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Godofgamblers       9/1/2009 10:30:27 PM
You can trust me that you are not the only one on these forums who has been to those places. I don't like your statement but i won't belabor the point as you are a respected contributor to SP and I don't want to give you grief, so i'll just drop the matter.
 
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LB    Barbarossa Today   9/2/2009 5:12:07 AM
Sorry but I assumed since you cited Barbarossa that Germany and Poland would be invading Russia.  Nuclear weapons aside that is a non starter "today".
 
If you want to posit Russia attacking you have to assume Germany and Poland not in NATO, no other assistance, and no nukes which is really outside our reality.
 
In any case you have to make some assumptions about how many operational aircraft Russia would have.  They have somewhere around 500 SU-27s in the air force and naval aviation, 500 MiG 29s,  400 MiG 31s, 600 Su-24s, 300 Su-25s, and maybe 225 or so Backfire bombers plus other combat aircraft.  Call it 3,000 or so.  Assume the real number is half that or 1,500.  That is 1,500 to Germany and Poland's roughly 400 combat aircraft which we give full credit for.  The 150 or so German and Polish Typhoon's, F-4's, F-16's, and MiG 29s and not going to defeat 700 or more Su-27's, Mig 29s, and Mig 31s.  Anyone want to mention how many SS-26's Russia might have and whether they've got one they can launch from a Backfire and what other long range conventional air to surface missiles they have in service in what numbers, lol? 
 
On the positive side the road and rail nets and level of motorization is vastly higher today than WWII so the far more modest numbers of forces engaged should have far less trouble logistically.



In 1941 Germany invaded the USSR with 3.5 million men, including it's allies.  The German Army today has about 135,000 men and another 35,000 in the reserves for an army of 6 brigades (+2 airborne) supported by about 40 Typhoons, 50 F-4's, and 200 Tornadoes.  Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons while Germany has none.  Your parameters of "today" preclude this happening.



 



Hell Poland today has 12 brigades (+2 airborne/air assault) and could contribute 120 combat aircraft.  Germany and Poland simply do not have a military structure that allows such fantasies "today".  







 

LB: I respect a guy who comes out from the offset with numbers. Numbers and analysis and then more numbers are my favourite things for questions like these.



My scenario was more political rather than based on an in depth research of the man power of both armies.


I would be interested though, since you seem to have done the research- how many troops you think Russia could support, logistically speaking? I remember reading someone fairly respected on here post that Georgia was about the limit at the moment.

 

Ukraine is the key and I believe they could contibute forces on about the scale of Poland or Germany if not the same quality.

 

Also I have said that all the allies would have to do is hold off the Russians- not mount an invasion. So the Russians would have to be supporting troops further away than they did in Georgia. -Also just a quibble here- but I read on WIKI that the German reservists amount to something like 300,000 not 35,000? Maybe you were adjusting for what you believe the Germans could realistically support out of that 300,000?

 

I'm not sure the Russians would use nukes except to defend their own territory since Germany and Poland are Nato members- and they would risk UK, French and most importantly US becoming involved. Better a limited war over all they wish to acheive which is Ukraine.

 

I suppose there is also and argument for saying that there would be a full NATO response to Ukraine being invaded- in which case Germany and Poland become only the vanguard of a much more formiddable force.

 


 
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