Will Germany rise again??

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longrifle 11/27/2008 11:04:46 PM

The United States of America is not one of the 27 member states of the European Union.

Did you mean to say UK instead of USA?

Or perhaps did you mean to day NATO instead of EU?

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Nasty German Idiot 11/28/2008 10:39:38 AM

Germany has risen again. From a occupation zone to one of the wealthiest and most stable democratic countries. And its territory has expanded two times since following a peaceful policy.

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Nasty German Idiot 11/28/2008 10:51:16 AM

Germany has risen again. From a occupation zone to one of the wealthiest and most stable democratic countries. And its territory has expanded two times since following a peaceful policy.

1956 Saarland

1989 East Germany, East Berlin.

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doggone 11/30/2008 4:56:29 PM

I think the crux of the question is: When the US pulls out of Europe will Germany take over the leadership role.?

It's doubtful: Europe is now so heavily interwoven. The whole of Europe is now one big Brillo pad investment infrastructure. Those countries are tied into each other, and dependent on each other, like never before. Europe isn't just re-invested within itself it's tied deeply into the US and the rest of the world as well. When the US went into recession so did the EU (and most everybody else).

In the old days of Europe each country was sovereign. It's own entity. Not so anymore. Now the borders are open and the currency is the same.

In military issues Germans are like everybody else. We all want our money spent on more cars, TVs, internet surfing, and medical insurance, but we don't want our money taken away to be spent on tanks (except for what is barely necessary to keep aggressors away).

There's little doubt that hard times can bring out hard leaders, and devastated standards of living can bring out devasting leaderships. However, as far as Europe is concerned, that economic web is already woven and you can't just cut those strings loose. For better or for worse, all of Europe will either rise again, together, or fall together.

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doggone 11/30/2008 5:11:36 PM

I think the crux of the question is: When the US pulls out of Europe will Germany take over the leadership role.?

In the old days of Europe each country was sovereign. It's own entity. Not so anymore. Now the borders are open and the currency is the same.

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peter24 Issues 12/3/2008 3:58:12 PM

They have some "issues" to work through....

link

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peter24 12/4/2008 11:22:29 AM

Sorry, I'll try to copy-paste the link again so it works. Re: they have some issues.

link

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peter24 12/4/2008 11:29:30 AM

last try:

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5277034.ece

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Thomas Not the US South 12/7/2008 5:56:08 PM

I think the questions labours under the misconception, that there are significant circles, that want the hitlerite or imperial Germany back. The parallel to "The South arises again."

The circles that could have had an interest has not been disenfranchised to the same extend: The German industry has its place in the modern German society - a thing the slaveholding agricultural ruling class of the Confederacy did not have in post Civil War USA.

I don't think many outside Europe fully realises the transformation Germany has gone through since WW2. Germany has gone more than out of its way to rise the security of her apprehensive neighbours - this in the realisation, that nothing in Europe passes against German interests. Germany has a finger in every pie and everybody has a finger in Germanys pie.

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JFKY Considering Germany's recent... 12/7/2008 6:19:03 PM

Past of ineffectual military interventions, in the Balkans, and in Afghanistan and now in Atalanta, I'd say "no." Unless, by rising again you mean drinking lots of beer, and following legalistic rules of engagement that pretty much make their forces less dangerous than the Polizei...then yes German has risen again.

I know Nasty German Idiot and others will be unhappy and point out that KSK (?) have been in Afghanistan, and that's all well and good, but the BULK of German forces, pretty much in the Balkans, in Afghanistan, and it seems in the Horn of Africa, are just going to sit around, and get bored, fat, and drunk...make some "shocking" Youtube videos that will get the Greens and the SDP all up in arms, or shout "Sieg Heil" at the wrong visiting Minister and spark Parliamentary outrage...in short, the vast majority of German forces will simply be an occasionally visible political symbol of the "New" Germany's place in the EU world...a world of law, conferences, and legalisms, that may or may not achieve much, but sure does sound good in a Joint Communique from Bruxelles.

Personally, I'm past worrying about Germany rising again...I'd kind of like Germany to simply "man up" and work, in a reasonable way towards a better world, rather than sitting around and when called on it, hiding behind phrases like, "Well would you rather have peaceful Germans or Warlike ones?" There being a wold of difference between the US Army and the Wehrmacht and a world of difference between the Kaiser Heere, the Bundeswehr and the Wehrmacht...and that Germany can actually engage in combat and NOT be threat to everyone else. Because basically, saying this is a "New" Germany and we don't want to be the "Old" Germany is just a cop-out, allowing Germany and Germans to do little of any substance, but feel like they're accomplishing something. News Flash, by-and-large, you're not and if you want to achieve good in the world, you might, just MIGHT have to shoot someone...shooting someone does not make you the bad old Germany of the Drang Nach Osten, or Nacht und Nebel, or the Endlosung...it makes like any other country, in a morally defensible, but sometimes uncomfortable position.

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ambush 12/7/2008 8:24:27 PM

Germany has got some major problems, although it is the EUs largest and most powerful economy right now.

First, noticed the way Merkel has been sucking up to Putin by her objection to NATO expansion and over Georgia. This is because 43 percent of Germany?s total natural gas consumption coming from Russia. Russia has used many excuses to cutoff or raise the price of that product in the past to gain political leverage and it can do so again. Germany?s economy like almost the rest of the world is in a down turn and can hardly afford and energy crisis right now so it has to yield to Russian pressure

Germany still has an industrial/manufacturing export based economy. While it does turn out electronics, nobody talks about buying German made software or computers. They are competing with the Asian tigers while at the same time they have an increasingly aging population demanding more social services and shrinking population/tax base to finance it. Exports accounting for 45 percent of its GDP, 11 percent for the United States, 29 percent for the United Kingdom, 30 percent for Russia, 28 percent for Italy and 27 percent for France), the German economy could be severely affected by a worldwide recession that undercuts the ability of other countries to buy its products.

They have no central bank to coordinate their response to the economic crisis which unlike the US is not about subprime mortgages but Enron like accounting of bank loans to corporation and the banks overvaluing corporate assets used to secure those loans. Add to this is Balkan/Baltic overexposure. (I know the Germans like to blame the US for their crisis but the German Leadership has a long tradition of blaming others for their problems to appease the masses) Germany has announced a 70 billion euro ($95 billion) bank capitalization plan and up to 400 billion euros ($543 billion) for interbank loan guarantees and a second bailout proposal for real estate giant Hypo to the tune of 50 billion euros ($67.9 Billion). Put this up against a GDP of only about $2.5 Trillion.

Germany?s military while relatively well equipped is been in decline for years like most of Europe.

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Nasty German Idiot 12/8/2008 6:43:21 AM

Ineffectual military interventions in the Balkans ? You mean the bombardment of Serbia and forcing them to retreat from Kosovo ? Yes we are still there keeping the Peace with thousands of Troops in Kosovo, same with Bosnia. Any Problem with that ? Or do you want to blame Germany for this ethnical mess that has hang around Europes ass for more than 1000 years ?

I see that you have bought any cheap trash that the uninformed US media (taking / stealing their stuff on Germany and its military from the most incompetent Media on military issues, the German Media ) has thrown out. Now its interesting that even our German Media has written that German Soldiers are allowed 2 cans of beer, which wont make somebody drunk. (Maybe US Soldiers which are not used to Alcohol) There have been at least 3 ships saved last week alone by German Frigates operating in the Horn of Africa, but wow- suprise - US Media dont bring that kind of stuff. (XXXttp://www.newstin.co.uk/tag/uk/91748194)

´Personally, I'm past worrying about Germany rising again...I'd kind of like Germany to simply "man up" and work, in a reasonable way towards a better world, rather than sitting around and when called on it, hiding behind phrases like, "Well would you rather have peaceful Germans or Warlike ones?"

That "manning up" is already happening, although it seems you dont want to recognize it. (XXXttp://www.thefrontierpost.com/News.aspx?ncat=an&nid=1068)

Second: Germany was forced by the Allied Powers to completely abandon its military, and had to convince everybody that it should have at least a kind of defensive militia. For 10 years there was no military at all. (Until 1956) Than, until 1994, Germany had ALL its Units under Nato Command (only the French-German Brigade was to some extend commanded ONLY by German Officers) And only after 1994 had Germany become an Independant nation at all. During the first Gulf-War (1991) Germany simply COULD NOT intervene in Iraq because there was no equipment for foreign mission. In 1999, Germany was still transforming its military from Cold-War to Foreign Mission capable forces. Still EVERYTHING available was send to the Balkans, and Germany for the first time bombed another country after WW2.

Maybe you dont understand that but Germany had to invest 1.5 TRILLION ? for the rebuilding of the German East, and there was no money left to buy fancy military Equipment. The transformation process was started 1996 and will take many more years. Still even you must have heard that Germany will get 60 A-400M (Yes, we only have C-130 Transall at the moment) , has gotten the PZH-2000, a Leopard upgrade (to A6), Fennek, Dingo, Eurofighter, U-212, F-125, F-124, new support ships for long-range fleet operation, Boxer, Puma IFV etc. etc. etc. But it NEEDS TIME. Even now we dont have enough equipment ready for conditions in Afghanistan - (dust resistant helicopters, enough mine-resistant armored vehicles) to fight full capacity without having to fear consequences like the ambushed French Paras encountered some time ago. Such thing wont happen to the German Army.

There being a wold of difference between the US Army and the Wehrmacht and a world of difference between the Kaiser Heere, the Bundeswehr and the Wehrmacht...and that Germany can actually engage in combat and NOT be threat to everyone else. Because basically, saying this is a "New" Germany and we don't want to be the "Old" Germany is just a cop-out, allowing Germany and Germans to do little of any substance, but feel like they're accomplishing something. News Flash, by-and-large, you're not and if you want to achieve good in the world, you might, just MIGHT have to shoot someone...shooting someone does not make you the bad old Germany of the Drang Nach Osten, or Nacht und Nebel, or the Endlosung...it makes like any other country, in a morally defensible, but sometimes uncomfortable position.

That is simply wrong, and you youself with your comment showed that. In the beginning of your post you wrote that your already behind "WORRYING" about Germanies rise - if the word "worrying" doesnt imply fear of something bad than what does it imply ? It is exactly for that reason that Germany tries to avoid that image, because People still have only one Picture of Germany in their head, and anything related to the German Military brings them up directly. You also did so.

Saying that Germany doesnt accomplish anything at the moment is just disrespectful and wrong, and besides accusations you dont have anything to back that up. If I look at the number of deployed Troops, I see Germany on place 3. When referring to the number of actual casualties, Germany has had more than France, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Czecs , Romanians, Australians, Poland, Estland , Norway , Portugal, etc etc.

South Korea and Switzerland by the way have completly withdrawn while Germany has enlarged the Mission from 1,200 to 4500 Troops.

Now given that the only positive thing that Germans at home could get out of this mission would be a decline in drug-production, exactly in this Area nobody cares about our interests that have been voiced over and over by Germany, nor does anybody talk of a general Afghanistan strategy debate, another thing that has been demanded and would be necessary to win the War. It would also at the same time raise more support and understanding in the German Population which would make it a lot easier for our Politicians to get support for the mission. Nato and the United States has its very own kind of hypocrisy about touching issues in Afghanistan, and Germany offers a nice chance to blame someone for the ungoing non-success of the military campaign in the South.

As I have already explained there is a process going on that has led from a fully pacifist country (1994) to the first Air-War (1999) to the first ground Operation (2000 - present) As I can imagine other steps in that direction have fully gone under your radar, for example the erection of a Monument for the German soldiers that have fallen during foreign missions or the re-introduction of a Combat-Honor Medal.

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JFKY NGI 12/8/2008 11:06:04 AM

You talk about the NUMBERS of troops, funny you're a little short on accomplishments of the troops. Kosovo was won with AMERICAN....not NATO and sure not GERMAN air power. And yes if you consider sitting around in kasernes watching the Kosovars purge the Serbs, or watch the Serbs chase the NATO forces out of north Kosovo to be an accomplishment, then by all means be proud. You've accomplished much...of course it's not restoring Kosovo to anything like a democratic self-rule, unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, but hey you guys went and stood around a lot, and looked stunning in your outfits.

Look Britain has liberated South Iraq and fights in Afghanistan...the longest kill in sniper-land...Canadians at 2,500 metres...the Dutch, they're fighting in Afghanistan...the US we have medals of Honour in both theatres, IIRC. What do you guys have.....900,000 bottles of beer to your credit...oh and some of you shouted "Sieg Heil" at the Minister of Defense when he visited the Balkans...a few "exposes" on the troops in Afghanistan...that's pretty thin gruel as compared to the efforts other nations, in the EU and outside the EU (Canada/Australia) have contributed.

As to why, well you know you guys didn't have to spend 1.5 TRILLION to integrate East Germany...in fact had you NOT done what yo did, you and East Germany would be a whole lot better off. When you allowed the East German Mark parity with the West German Mark you blew it...and then you decided to transfer the Bundesrepublick's social, financial, and economic policies to East Germany.

Fine you made East Germany a part of West Germany, though the productivity of East Germany was far less than that of West Germany...just so the East Germans wouldn't feel "less than" the Westerners. Well they were...West Germany had Mercedes, Ostis had the Trabi...and the result was massive unemployment and dislocation. Now Germany has trouble paying for its productive citizens, considering the economic/social policies of Germany, much less paying East Germans over $22/hour for work that ought to have been valued at much closer to $8-10 per hour. Germany is in the boat it's in because you guys decided that you'd make Osti's "honorary" West Germans, even though they didn't have the economic infrastructure to justify it. That was your call, but don't try to act as if it was inevitable, it wasn't.

So in Afghanistan you don't do much, in the Balkans you don't do much, and off Somalia it appears that your Rules of Engagement are going to prevent yo from doing much...sorry showing up to the soccer match, but not playing, isn't being on the team...its just showing up. I'd like for Germany to do a little more than just show up. Barring that please just don't show up. It's less cruel that way...

And let's don't talk about Afghanistan's "unpopularity." Look dude you can disagree about Iraq, but Afghanistan is a very justifiable campaign, and it's in Europe's advantage too, but you guys aren't pulling your weight. You are expecting, as usual, someone else to do the heavy lifting...Just like Kosovo, or the Balkans in general. That was WHOLELY a European problem, and yet the Europeans didn't solve it...you waited for the US to take the lead and contribute the AWACS, the jamming air craft, the Stealth fighters, the Nimitz, and the precision-guided munitions that made the air campaign work.

As I say, I don't expect you to rise again, but how about you just do your part? Contribute some troops that can shoot at the Taliban, and then send them to the South of Afghanistan to do some shooting...how about letting your 1,400 troops/sailors/airmen off Somalia behave in a proactive manner, to include shooting pirates. How about the next time theres a bunch of nasty ethnic cleansing going on in EUROPE and the refugees are flooding Italy, Austria, and other EU nations that Germany and the EU nations ACTUALLY SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

I'm not asking that you contribute a Korps to invade Iraq...or ask that you devote 5% of GNP to defense. No, I'm asking you to contribute a BRIGADE to Afghanistan, and let it be available, if needs must, to fighting...that you sort out European problems without resort to AMERICAN power-dealing with Russia is not a wholly European problem BTW and we're glad to help you guys in dealing with Putin's Imperialism....that you actually FIGHT pirates, not just show up...that's all I'm asking...

I apologize for seeming to insult you, as a German...I don't mean this to be a "flame war" like the "SBS is better than the SEALS" of "Turkey v. Greek, who better." It simply is that Germany, and many in the EU have decided that "Soft Power" is the ONLY power they can bring to bear...sadly that is an illusion, and an illusion that is wearing thin, with those who are actually carrying the weight of wielding "hard power."

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Nasty German Idiot 12/8/2008 12:29:43 PM

I have never said that German Airpower "won" the Kosovo War, I said Germany participated with Bombers. If you would care to read up the attack you will find out that the German RECCE Tornados were responsible for knocking out Serb Radar.

PS: Guess who got sued by the Serbs for bombing bridges in Serbia ? Yes, it was GERMANY, not the US or Britain, because they hoped Germany would pay compensation again as we did no many times in the past. (XXXttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3193800.stm) This is exactly the reason why Germany contrary to others has to be MUCH MORE careful about these things.

About accomplishments in the Balkans: Well, Bosnia is now largely pacified, and Serbia is on the long term on its way to EU membership, with Germany clearing the Way for them as we did for Poland and other Eastern Partners.

In Kosovo, where Germany is still involved after the United States have long left the region, there have been clashes with ethnic groups all day long. Hundereds of civilians were rescued also by German Troops during these clashes, apart from simple everyday things like rescueing Serb Monks because the mob tries to burn them ... "XXXttp://www.nato.int/KFOR/chronicle/2004/chronicle_03/01.htm"

Apart from the Berlin Airlift, there is not much the American Troops have done in Germany than to wait 50 years, thank you for that accomplishment. PS: "exposes" Didnt kill 30 German Soldiers, suicide bombers and roadside bombs did.

I believe it is highly stupid to criticize the integration of the East into Germany, and that every penny invested in East Germany is far more beneficial to Germany than waging a War in Afghanistan.

Please dont even try to debate about inner German Politics with me, your gonna loose that one for sure. Please tell me what else than a slow adjustment of Eastern Wages to the West German level would have STOPPED EVERY INHABITANT of the East to simply leaving and getting to the West ? PS: The East German Industry was DOWN, RULED out, nothing coming from West Germany would have stopped their decline, as we saw with all Eastern European Nations. If I compare todays East Germany with Poland I see my money well invested. East German Productivity has by the way reached Western level since years. AND STILL EAST GERMAN WAGES ARE LOWER. THEY NEVER GOT THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY, THEY GOT EXACTLY WHAT THEY PRODUCED. YOUR STATEMENT IS SIMPLY WRONG. GERMAN PRODUCTIVITY HAS NEVER BEEN HIGHER.

In the Balkans, were still active, contrary to many other which have seriously reduced their troop level for Iraq and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, we secure 30 % of the country, and will soon also get our share of "violent" Provinces. In Somalia, German Warships have the right to shoot Pirates. So far any Pirates engaged directly withdrew and fled. The first one that shoots back or shoots at ships under protection of the German Navy will be sunk, I promise that to you. The only thing that is debated now in Germany is legislation for arresting Pirates in International Waters, and even there we will soon have a new Law that will make that clear.

It would be justified IF Nato would fight drug production, engage the Warlords, and fight the Taliban in Pakistan too - AND would like German devote a much higher importance to CIVIL rebuilding. We are currently pround to see Children going back to school (at least in GERMANYS PART of Afghanistan) only to find them without work AFTER school, joining the Taliban when lacking perspective.

And I largely agree with you on inaction of Europe in solving the Balkan mess. Still very wrong to call the Balkan efford "doing nothing"

All on the Way.

Putin is no threat to Europe, but merely trying to hold his stuff together and regain some ground lost 1991. Did you note that even this small action involving a single motorized Division threw Russia into recession and devestated their economy ?

Ohh same for me ... Im long enough on this board to have actually contributed the FIRST comment on the FIRST M1 vs Leopard thread ^^

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le_corsaire 12/10/2008 7:52:39 AM

Germany has got some major problems, although it is the EUs largest and most powerful economy right now.

Germany?s military while relatively well equipped is been in decline for years like most of Europe.

Where do you have this half-truth nonsense from ? Lets clarify a few points, becasue some of them are simply wrong:

a) Germany has economic problems like obviously everybody else does.

b) There is no big competition with the "Asian Tigers", as Germany's main exports are in industrial/productions goods (machinery, plant equipment, etc.), while most Asia countries export consumer goods.

c) Germany indeed does have a Central Bank (called Deutsche Bundesbank www.bundesbank.de) and in fact they do coordinate response to the economic crisis, as EU nations have agreed upon that each nation is responsible to set up their own plans, however coordinated with the ECB and the other EU nations.

d) Enron like accounting in corporations ? Where does this nonsense from ? The primary problem at the current state is a re-financing problem (e.g. in the case of Hypo Real Estate - also this statement in your post is half-truth, as Hypo (the bank) is part of the UniCredit group and something totally different - the problem obviously was that they re-financed long-term debts with short term loans and due to the financial crisis, where no longer able to reniew these instruments as you might know that the market is amost "dead").

e) "Overvaluing corporate assets used to secure those loans" is again without any evidence. The problem currently is that even profitable corporations with full order books can no longer achieve re-financing becasue of the the credit crunch.

f) The "bailout program" in Germany is currently used by 15 banks (i.e. there are 15 applications currently). The largest portions of it are so called "Landesbanks" and indeed the reason is that these Landesbanks have made their majro losses in U.S. subprime papers.

g) There might come up one very critical aspect for German banks: Some of them provided loans of considerable size to East European countries (particularly Russia). As oil/gas prices have declined and these countries might get into trouble because they are no longer able to finance themselves, nobody knows how much of this loanf volume will be paid back.

I think your grandparents have told you pretty wild stories about the "bad Germans" - believe me they do not have long teeth ...

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