Yes.

 

Best,

wjr

if france can't deal with Ayatollah's nukes. what superpower?? in 5 years Iran will be able to nuke Paris. Come on France!!! Fight ur own wars.

Since WWII there have been two superpowers :  The U.S. and the Soviet Union.  Since the Soviet Union no longer exists its down to one.  France hasnt been a super power for an awfully long time.  You could make the argument that France hasnt been a "superpower" since the colonial era anyway, let alone post WWII. 

 

France was a major power.  France still is a major power.  But, its super power status was lost back at the time of Napoleon. 

I'm inclined not to agree with that. She certainly lost an awful lot of power when control of Europe was wrested from her grip, but it wasn't long before she regained superpower status, and maintained it until WW2(aside from a few blips along the way, like the Franco-Prussian War).

 

During the 1800's France still had a very sizeable overseas empire, a strong navy, quality army, and a very decent economy. If she wasn't a superpower then we're being very stingy on what defines a superpower. Until the Prussians showed up there were only two nations with any real global power and that was France and Britain. If that doesn't make a superpower then I'm not sure what does. 

 

As for today, I do agree that she lost the title of superpower the same time all European countries did, and that was during World War 2.

 

B.L.

France ceased being a "Super Power" on 25 June 1940.  It was liberated by Anglo-AMERICAN forces, fought all its subsequent wars with American equipment or American money or both...that is NOT a Super Power.

 

As Wicked Chninchilla points out France is still a major power, nuclear weapons, global reach, global commitments, seat on the UNSC, but it has long ceased being a Super Power.

 

If this causes any French or Francophone angst, sorry but the facts is the facts.  France is in the top 10% of global power brokers, but not any where near being a global power in and of itself....

Buddy, I agree with everything you said, but was really necessary to capitalize 'American' like that? I'm sure that was just to make a point that America is the only superpower, not France or Britain etc, etc... But it's that kind of thing that upsets people and could cause a nice little flame war. World War 2 was a joint effort, simple as that. 

 

B.L. 

Heorot, if you Europeans had taken care of Hitler in 1935, or 1936, or 1938 we Yanks wouldn't have had to be there at all, late or otherwise, but you all were convinced that Herr Hitler , who had "legitimate grievances" could be persuaded to adopt a milder course.  Stunningly that Nice Mr Hitler turned out to be pretty much what Mein Kampf and his speeches made him out to be...be thankful we showed up.  Bottom-Line: Daladier, Chamberlain, Keynes, Oswald Mosely, Le Croix de Feu, all decided that they weren't going to stand up to Les Bosches/Huns, until it was far too late.

 

Well British Lion, sorry, I'm not really a chauvinist, but let's be honest...a significant portion of Britain's tank force was AMERICAN, had it not been for AMERICAN tank deliveries in 1942 Britain might have lost it's Middle East position, I'd bet that a majority of the Combat Aircraft in Britain, after Jan 1944 were AMERICAN, certainly approximately 60% of the Combat Power on the Continent 1944-45 was AMERICAN (by that I mean US forces)....If it had not been for America Britain would have quite possibly lost the war....Not be conquered by the Germans, after the Battle of Britain and then June 1941 not really a possibility, but Britain would have lost its oil and would have been in a position wherein it could not possibly defeat Germany, and so it would have been left with the alternatives of continuing a hopeless fight or seeking an accommodation with Germany.

 

Thank you for standing up to Hitler and holding the line from May 1940 until June 1941, over a year.  Thank you for Churchill.  But the ONLY reason Britain won the war and the only reason France isn't a province of the

 

Bottom-Line: Remove the US from EITHER World War and Germany prospers, relatively or absolutely, it was the US entry that was DECISIVE to Germany's defeat in both cases. 

Herot,

 

I do not share it but there is an argument that we would have been better off not coming at all.

 

Protect the UK, let Adolf the Arian kill off Joe the Jerk and die of syphilis in the fullness of time. And the French would get what they so richly deserve -- a little reduction of their ego.

 

The only real downside is that the Jews would have been slaughtered to the last soul. If for no other reason we had to to get involved.

 

It's funny how moral issues -- freeing the French,  saving the Jews and others -- were just fine then but saving the poor slobs in Iraq is evil Bush stuff that brooked no support from the effete EU. I guess it all depends upon who is wearing the chains.

 

Best,

wjr

Buchanan and some US Paleo-Cons make that sort of argument, let Hitler and Stalin duke it out...but sadly that idea just doesn't work.  In fact, by 1949 the Us and Britain might face a truly AWFUL world.

 

Hitler could have beaten Stalin....Not in the Long Run but in 1940 or 1941 or even 1942, possibly.  It was British/US Lend-Lease that kept the USSR in the war.  Had there been no Middle East Campaign, no Western Campaign, no Bomber Offensive from 1943 on, the Nazi's could have defeated the Soviets.  It was a close-run thing in 1941 and might have turned out very differently.

 

My point is that in 1949 we could see a Nazi Germany (Hitler) stretching from France the to Ukraine, a Soviet Union (Stalin) stretching over the current Russia, plus the 'Stans and Caucasus, A Chinese Communist State (Mao), and a Japanese East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere (Tojo). 

 

Bottom-Line: If we had left Europe to the Europeans we might face a world that had Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Tojo, leaving FDR and Churchill as very weak players in the game.

Well British Lion, sorry, I'm not really a chauvinist, but let's be honest...a significant portion of Britain's tank force was AMERICAN, had it not been for AMERICAN tank deliveries in 1942 Britain might have lost it's Middle East position, I'd bet that a majority of the Combat Aircraft in Britain, after Jan 1944 were AMERICAN, certainly approximately 60% of the Combat Power on the Continent 1944-45 was AMERICAN (by that I mean US forces)....If it had not been for America Britain would have quite possibly lost the war....Not be conquered by the Germans, after the Battle of Britain and then June 1941 not really a possibility, but Britain would have lost its oil and would have been in a position wherein it could not possibly defeat Germany, and so it would have been left with the alternatives of continuing a hopeless fight or seeking an accommodation with Germany.

Bottom-Line: Remove the US from EITHER World War and Germany prospers, relatively or absolutely, it was the US entry that was DECISIVE to Germany's defeat in both cases. 

Remove Britain or Russia and you lose WW2 also. Remove Britain or France from WW1 and that one's lost. I don't see your point. I'm not dismissing America's contribution or arguing who contributed more. All I'm saying is that it was a JOINT effort, with all 3 nations pulling their weight and winning the war. Belittling one nations contribution is not a good way to make friends.

 

Look at France's recent history:

 

 

 

 

A conquered britain means it becomes impossible for the US to liberate Europe. How do you propose the US will cross the atlantic in the face of an unbeaten U-boat arm (the battle of the Atlantic was one by a majortiy of BRITISH forces), carrying a large enough invasion force and enough aircraft to take on an unbeaten Luftwaffe, and resupply said invasion force with the Atlantic behind them. Also bearing in mind that Germany will control the majority of oil supplies in the middle east.

 

Face it, you might have been the dominant force in europe in those later years of the war, but you wouldn't have won the war without us. Also, it becomes very easy to accuse european politicians of appeasement in the face of Hitler's threats in the 30s, fair enough. After all, if only they had joined the US in it's affirmative action against the Nazis, which I believe was labelled splendid isolation. Face it, no one comes out of the rise of facism smelling of roses, It might not have been in your own back yard but it would have been supremely naive of the US politcians to assume that a Hitler dominated Europe would not ahve affected the states one little bit surely?