Different tank gun accuracy

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MikkoLn RE:Different tank gun accuracy 2/26/2004 4:40:23 AM

This is pretty interesting topic indeed. We have had some discussion about this before, and also I wrote a little about this some time ago in one thread concerning tank guns, but must say too at the first place that I can't fully well answer all this right now at least. Or for good answer to all points, maybe never, but I can check out what I can gather...Something for starters anyway... If we're not looking too much purely at figures or statistics (I think that's not all that good or reasonable every time) but taking more practical point of view into consideration, at 3000 m:s tank generates roughly a side profile of 8m long and 3m height (this may vary considerably, but under good conditions it's about that). Western 120mm guns, like the basic Rheinmetall, can optimally group at little more than 0,5m from that range, so when compared to layout of target there's not a big possibility that due to the limitations of gun accuracy itself there would be (at least a lot of) misses. Modern western guns are very accurate as such on ranges where engagement can be made anyhow with today's other technological limits. Gun accuracy will fall somewhat on longer ranges, but the possibility that it alone will generate extremely much misses is not very big. Of course the frontal silhouette of the tank is much smaller, and when on hull down position, we're talking about completely another subject really. Then also minor accuracy problems might cause some problems. Many people refer to russian guns as inaccurate. Well, it's how you take it, they're not in level with western ones but mostly the referred "inaccuracy" is not directly involved with the gun accuracy, these should be separated. At ranges less than 2000 or 1500 meters they are perfectly accurate, and there's no practical difference between them and western ones. From 2000-3000 meters onwards their accuracy suffers serious inflation in comparision with western guns, but still at the same 3km they will group in some 1,5m, which, concerning again the profile of the intended target, in itself is good enough to guarantee acceptable accuracy on point target. It is only in very long distances, where 125mm gun inaccuracy will show as a real factor and significant number of misses due to that. Soviet tanks as such are pretty sturdy platforms for "quality" gunnery at ranges less than 3km, with today's western style FC for even more maybe (at this range they can compete somewhat well with western tanks, considering the equal crew issue).

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RetiredCdnTanker RE:Different tank gun accuracy 2/26/2004 6:10:34 AM

Another interesting topic. New service kinetic energy ammunitions are capable, in test conditions from test barrels, of less than .1 mil dispersion. That means, at 1000 meters, the dispersion of the round will be less than 10 cm. That, in itself, is remarkable, everything considered. But, real world accuracy is normally quite different. Tanks vary, crew skills vary, trunnions and barrels get worn, and so on. In the real world, 25 cm groups at 1000 meters is quite acceptable, while anything larger than 35 cm is not. Of course, every once in a while, along comes the "perfect" combination, when a crew will fire a 15 cm grouping. But, consider that even a 25 cm grouping means less than 10 inches! The current acceptable standard is to be able to hit a one meter by one meter stationary target, either while on the move or stationary, at ranges of 2500 meters, 90% of the time. That has been proven to be achievable in most third generation western tanks. Why is that important? Because a well positioned tank will not expose more than one meter of turret. Current soviet tanks cannot meet that standard, especially on the move, although they have come close while stationary.

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mike_golf RE:Different tank gun accuracy 2/26/2004 10:42:07 AM

I agree with RetiredCdn completely and wanted to let him answer since he is much more current than I am. Just remember that a dispersion of 1 mil means a 100 cm (1 meter) dispersion at 1000 meters. This is why the MRS is so important. Changes in temperature and tactical movement can easily change the tube muzzle location by a mil or more from where it was when you boresighted. Think about the size of a tank turret and imagine being off by 200 cm when taking a 2000 m shot. One comment, I had a fairly new M1A1B (Heavy Armor) during GW1. I found with war shots and properly maintained FCS, including regular MRS updates, that my rounds were all going "through the dot" at ranges over 3000 meters. Meaning the round could be observed going through the center dot in the reticle of the primary sight. The accuracy of the modern main gun with properly trained crews and properly maintained gun and FCS is exceptional.

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mike_golf RE:Different tank gun accuracy 2/26/2004 10:46:41 AM

One more comment. The Soviet/Russian 125 is reasonably accurate at ranges up to 2500 meters IF the crew is properly trained and the gun and FCS are well maintained. In a western European conflict that would be fine. On the Russian steppes, North American plains or the deserts of the Middle East it would be a problem, as the Iraqi's found out. We would shoot and hit them at 3000 meters, they would return fire (T-72) and miss at the same distance. So, some of this really depends. Do you want your tank to be accurate anywhere you use it? Or just in a specific region? Finally, while the gun is important, in true manuever warfare what is really important is the ability to bring mass and shock to bear on the enemy. A well trained regiment/brigade with T-80's could do this just as well as one equipped with Abrams, Chally or Leo.

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aru TANK GUNNERY 90% ACCURACY THEORY 10/1/2009 10:04:39 AM

Hi, Friend I 'm a Leopard 2A4 Tank Commander from Singapore have u heard about the theory on this "TANK GUNNERY 90% ACCURACY THEORY" if u know can u pls forward to me the soft copy or the web page that I can refer to.. Cos I'm interested to understanding on this, cheers

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strat-T21C agree with mike-golf. 10/5/2009 11:37:20 PM

MRS is so important these days, especially with the L55 gun of the Leo2a6m. The barrel actually follows the sun ( with barrel bend) during the day. I had my gunner check at least every 30mins in Afghanistan, and when in contact, after every second round. By doing this we were able to hit mansized targets and fire positions without missing ever. Good points by all.

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