A Question on Marine and Army Snipers

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ambush RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/24/2005 6:37:10 AM

Not being a sniper bu tcan only go by what I have heard formothes and read. The Marine COrps Sniper/Instructor course is ranked by many as th ebest in the US military and aong the best in the World. As I understand it the Army course is shorter and lacks the same prestige. This could be the resutl of the COrps putting more emphasis on snipers sooner than the Army did and the allocation of resources.

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JCT RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/24/2005 1:17:01 PM

There are a couple of Scout-Sniper courses in the Marines, the Quantico school being the highest rated. I was part of the staff at the 1st MARDIV division schools where the West Coast Scout-Sniper school is located. I was fortunate enough to watch portions of the course and witness several stalks. Very fascinating. I would not knock Army snipers, they are very good, especially their SF shooters.

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Sam RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/24/2005 1:40:46 PM

I have a nephew that is an army sniper. The big difference is the range that they shoot at. Army snipers only train to 800 yds. And not as much time on stalking as Marine snipers schools. It may just be him but even on the Discovery Wings channel it seemed like the classroom portion was a little weak. He and I got into a discussion about barrel harmonics and playing with loads to see which one your rifle likes. He had the deer in the headlights look. Why I think that is so: Army doesn't teach marksmanship to their soldiers. Marines who report to sniper school already know what makes a good shooting position, effects of weather, how to determine wind, ect... so they can add to that and go into more advanced subjects. Either way, I wouldn't want to be in the open with either one of them gunning for me.

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PeregrinePike RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/25/2005 8:44:21 AM

Sam, do the snipers go about their work on more of an instinct base or on a scientific base? - And which in your opinion is is more useful in the field? Quite a few of the soldiers and marines in the US have had hunting/tageting experience as kids, so I figure they have some instinct for shooting too. Does improving upon the innate instincts help produce a good sniper? And increasingly there is a population shift away from the woods to cities, and a consequent reduction in field craft, but maybe an increase in technical education. Or does breaking down sniping into a clear scientific model help produce a good sniper? I ask particularly in reference to "good shooting position, effects of weather, how to determine wind, ect"... ... which can either be determined by instinct honed by living in the field, or arrived at by using scientific method (I know you can use Reynolds' equations for the weather and wind conditions, and maybe something similar for others too. And apparently the Secret Service splits its armorers into one group of feel-men and another of tech-men for the barrel harmonics). I know the answer is a good balance of the two, but was wondering which can be more thorough?

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Sam RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/26/2005 5:10:12 PM

First, I am not, nor have I ever been a sniper, these are just opinions >>Sam, do the snipers go about their work on more of an instinct base or on a scientific base? - And which in your opinion is is more useful in the field?<< What are you calling Instinct base. If for some reason, instinct tells you something ?just feels right? is it because you were taught and have always applied sound scientific based shooting principles? >>Quite a few of the soldiers and marines in the US have had hunting/tageting experience as kids, so I figure they have some instinct for shooting too. Does improving upon the innate instincts help produce a good sniper?<< I was a Primary Marksmanship Instructor, and from my experience, I would rather have someone that had never touched a gun to teach how to shoot vice someone that use to shoot back home. Too many people have really bad shooting habits that may not show up deer hunting with a scope at 150 yds with a flat shooting 7mm but will keep them from hitting the broad side of a barn using iron sights at 300 or 500 yards. And they will blame it on ?that plastic POS M-16?. At which point I would usually pick their rifle up and shoot tight bullseyes in the off hand at 500 yds. (really very easy with a 16A2) >>And increasingly there is a population shift away from the woods to cities, and a consequent reduction in field craft, but maybe an increase in technical education. Or does breaking down sniping into a clear scientific model help produce a good sniper?<< One of the reasons the MC runs an urban sniper course in Quantico. And from some of the courses I?ve attended you really have to be dead on. Think about shooting at a target 100 meters away that is 3 stories higher or lower than you are. The effects of bullet drop are the same but the effects of wind will be different. Plus you will have cross winds at every alley, gap in buildings, but at less that 200 meters its not really a factor. Its when you want to do the long range shot that the training comes in. >>I ask particularly in reference to "good shooting position, effects of weather, how to determine wind, ect"... ... which can either be determined by instinct honed by living in the field, or arrived at by using scientific method (I know you can use Reynolds' equations for the weather and wind conditions, and maybe something similar for others too. And apparently the Secret Service splits its armorers into one group of feel-men and another of tech-men for the barrel harmonics).<< Once again where do you acquire those instincts? I may look at movement of trees and ?just know? that I need to adjust my dope 3 clicks left because when the trees bend as they do I have always had to move it that far to get/stay on target. Or I can calculate the speed of the wind by the motion of the trees and know that for X range I must move the rear sight X clicks left because it is a 8 MPH full value wind. The guy that knows the formula can adjust for range through calculations. The hanging out in the woods instinct guy when faced with a distance that he hasn?t shot, or factor he has never encountered has to SWAG it. FYI, I?ve been shooting since I was 8 yrs old. It took me a few years to unlearn bad habits and become a high expert shooter in the MC. I have had many people tell me that I just a natural shooter. I say no such thing I check off my little list of body alignment, body position, BRASSF, and check environmental conditions every time I pull a trigger. I know the answer is a good balance of the two, but was wondering which can be more thorough?

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ChdNormII RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/27/2005 3:45:06 PM

Are they truly better than Army snipers in... ... history of performance? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, But I think there are numerous Army snipers throughout the comparitive history of the two branches that racked up far more confirmed kills than their Marine counterparts. Hath has the, not totally unwarranted, distinction of being the most notable sniper. If I'm not mistaken during Vietnam there were several Army snipers (if I recall, mostly with the 9th ID) that far surpased his count of 93. Surely not the end all be of all the topic, but notable I think. ... training of their snipers? I would have to say that Marines regardless of their MOS recieve better training than soldiers of the Army. I think thats a by product of the size of the two organizations as much as anything. but in general, I think Marine brass tends to see training as a little more essential than Army brass. ... talent pool from which they get their snipers? I'm of the opinion that in general, Marines possess the warrior spirit more than a comparible Army personel. If someone is truly inclined to join one or the other to be become a modern day warrior (without any other factors such as family tradition or a specific desire like armor) then I think that person is more inclined to look to the Marines over the Army. I think overall the Marines recieve more recruits with that mindset. ... equipment selection being a smaller and flexible force? I dont think that really plays into it on the scale youd emply snipers. All things being relevent, an Army Infantry Company isnt that far removed from a Marine rifle company. Probably not that much difference of size and flexibility all the way up thru the brigade level for it to matter on the whole. or just ... PR? The best for last! That more than anything is probably responcible for the distinction between the two in my opinion. "Or is the whole thing a capricious portrayal when all things are really equal? Something that caught one man's fancy and just grew out of hand into popular belief. I know some instances of such in US military itself... but dunno about this issue." I may be wrong on this, not being the sniper type or really even having the desire. But I think the mystique of the Marine sniper comes from the perception of how they go about their jobs. You almost picture a Marine sniper stalking his target over the course of a week long low crawl into position to make that one perfect shot at 1000 yards. Where the perception of the Army sniper is more of a support role, attached or tagging along with an infantry platoon sniping targets of oppurtunity.

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ChdNormII RE:A Question on Marine and Army Snipers 3/27/2005 4:03:30 PM

I dont believe there is any such thing as a natural shooter. There are physical abilities that greatly enhance ability, but I think theyre pretty rare. Things like greater than 20/20 vision and better than average coordination come to mind. However, without ever learning the basics of shooting it'd be hard to put assets like those to use. I come down on this mainly on the side the scientific approach I guess. After enough experiance and trigger time things seem to become instinctive that are really just the honing of the fine motor skills and an unconsciencious application of the basics. My anecdote .... My great uncle taught me how to shoot handguns. Still to this day Ive yet to meet anyone that comes closer to what youd call an insticitive shooter. We'd go out plinking and Id stand there watching him shoot individual barbs off of a barb wire fence at about ten yards using an old K-frame S&W combat masterpiece ... from the holster! No sights or anything .... just the old bill Jordan style speed rock type of draw. He couldnt teach me squat! When I'd ask something as basic as "how do you do that?" the answer was always something along the lines of "I don't know ... I just do it". He honestly didnt have any clue how he did it, he just did it. But he'd never picked up a handgun in his life before joining the US Army where he wound up on the 1st ID pistol team and followed that up with decades of bullseye and PPC compitions. the basic fundementals were so ingrained by that point they were instinct, but it wasnt anything natural.

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BRANDON* 5/16/2009 1:30:09 PM

im not sure witch is better but i neeed to know which one is easier to get into or will give me a better chance of me becoming a sniper marine or army?

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BRANDON* 5/16/2009 4:07:12 PM

"I loved the Marine Corps, but it is a small (sniper) service and the opportunity to go to (sniper) schools is limited . That limits your opprtunities for service. The Army is huge by comparison and has many more slots for the same sort of (sniper) training"

-Staff Sgt. Harry Martinez

(in the book Trigger Men by Hans Halbertstadt)

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SCCOMarine 5/19/2009 3:05:35 PM

There's not a particular Better or Worse.

There is however one that is more extensively trained than the other and that has to do w/usage, how the 2 services use their snipers.

USMC Scout/Snipers have a longer & more extensive training regimen than Army snipers b/c the USMC uses their snipers differently. The Marine Corps uses its snipers w/much more freedom of range & movement across the Battle Space, giving them the authority for Independent Actions & as a close-in reconnaissance asset. Hence the name Scout-Sniper.

The Army keeps their snipers very close to home, they are closely tied w/ Brigade movements and have less freedom of movement for Independent Actions. They are mostly used to cover Brigade movements & for Specific Sniping missions.

Where as Marine Scout-Snipers are given much more authority to roam independently to disrupt enemy movements thru-out an AO.

The Schools

This is reflected in the differences btwn the Schools. The Army's school is 5wks & covers the basics; Long Range shooting, Advanced Land Nav & Comm, Observation & Concealment, & Stalking. Both schools are excellent & cover the same basic material.

The Marine Training is in phases, 1st is the Professionally Instructed Gunmen (PIG) Course which is usually 4wks but can be compressed into 2wks for deployment constraints. Following this is 3mths to over a yr of OJT in a SS Plt followed by the 10wk SS Basic Course. Completing the course earns the title Hunter of Gunmen (HOG), honor grad recv's the HOG's Tooth (7.62 Bullet on a Chain).

USMC's 10wk SS Basic Course is Operationally focused. It covers the basics but goes indepth into; operating as an independent team, mission planning, reconnaissance, & leveraging the MAGTF Combined Arms Platforms to support independent actions.

This is just one of the reasons why its considered the Best sniper course in the world. Not only that but your competing against the Best in the World. This is b/c its the most sought after sniper course in the world. So in any given class you can have SEALs, Army SOF, AFSOF, or various Commando units fr/many countries, along w/Marines fr/various specialized units in the Corps.

-Staff Sgt. Harry Martinez (in the book Trigger Men by Hans Halbertstadt)

I don't know if you put the (sniper) in parentheses or the original writer, but as written its a very misleading statement. W/out the (sniper) in parentheses the Staff Sgt's statement is very true:
"I loved the Marine Corps, but it is a small service and the opportunity to go to schools is limited . That limits your opprtunities for service. The Army is huge by comparison and has many more slots for the same sort of training"

Schools like Jump, Ranger, HRST, SERE, MFF, etc. the Army has alot of money & alot of slots.

But w/Sniper its actually the opposite. The Army is 3x larger than the Corps, so as an overall # the Army has more slots, but the USMC has more Sniping billets per Unit.

The USMC has 16+ sniper billets per Inf BN, Army has 8-16 sniper billets per Brigade Combat Team. The USMC has 27 Inf BNs, the Army has 35 BCTs. However each Army BCT has 3-4 Inf BNs in it.

In other words the Corps has more sniper billets per unit (16+ per 1 BN vs 8-16 per 3-4 BNs), definitely not going to make it any easier for you to get in but there are more slots in the Corps.

But then again if your looking for the easy way better not look @ the Corps at all.

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