Tucci78
JFKY - '...our entirely unconstitutional...'' 2/4/2012 9:50:34 PM
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"...and therefore criminally unlawful war against the Tikriti Mafia in Iraq...."
"I'm sure this is tongue-in-cheek, but would you care to point out which portion of the US Constitution was violated? I'll wait...."
Tsk. You neocon American Empire clowns never read the U.S. Constitution, do you?
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11, which goes:
"[Congress shall have Power...] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; "
It's commonly referred to as "the War Powers Clause," and was written to deny the federal Executive the authority to wage war except upon the issue of a declaration of war. Economist and historian Thomas E. Woods, Jr., recounted...... the deliberate decision to repose this power only in the hands of the Congress:
At the Constitutional Convention, the delegates expressly disclaimed any intention to model the American executive exactly after the British monarchy. James Wilson, for example, remarked that the powers of the British king did not constitute "a proper guide in defining the executive powers. Some of these prerogatives were of a Legislative nature. Among others that of war & peace." Edmund Randolph likewise contended that the delegates had "no motive to be governed by the British Government as our prototype." with the British model of government with which they were most familiar, as well as with that of other nations, where the executive branch (in effect, the monarch) possessed all such rights, including the exclusive right to declare war. The Framers of the Constitution believed that history amply testified to the executive's penchant for war. As James Madison wrote to Thomas Jefferson, "The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care vested the question of war in the Legislature."
To repose such foreign-policy authority in the legislative rather than the executive branch of government was
a deliberate and dramatic break
with the British model of government with which they were most familiar, as well as with that of other nations, where the executive branch (in effect, the monarch) possessed all such rights, including the exclusive right to declare war. The Framers of the Constitution believed that history amply testified to the executive's penchant for war. As James Madison wrote to Thomas Jefferson, "The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care vested the question of war in the Legislature."
-- Continued --
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Tucci78
Aint the Constitution such a problem for you Cops of the World clowns? 2/4/2012 9:52:46 PM
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-- Continued --
At the Constitutional Convention, Pierce Butler "was for vesting the power in the President, who will have all the requisite qualities, and will not make war but when the nation will support it." Butler's motion did not receive so much as a second. James Wilson assured the Pennsylvania Ratifying Convention, "This system will not hurry us into war; it is calculated to guard against it. It will not be in the power of a single man, or a single body of men, to involve us in such distress; for the important power of declaring war is vested in the legislature at large: this declaration must be made with the concurrence of the House of Representatives: from this circumstance we may draw a certain conclusion that nothing but our interest can draw us into war."
In Federalist #69, Alexander Hamilton explained that the president's authority "would be nominally the same with that of the King of Great Britain, but in substance much inferior to it. It would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war, and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies; all which by the constitution under consideration would appertain to the Legislature."
Read the whole of Dr. Woods' article, why don'tcha? Toward the close thereof, he quotes:
...the words of Senator Robert A. Taft in 1951: "My conclusion, therefore, is that in the case of Korea, where a war was already under way, we had no right to send troops to a nation, with whom we had no treaty, to defend it against attack by another nation, no matter how unprincipled that aggression might be, unless the whole matter was submitted to Congress and a declaration of war or some other direct authority obtained."
There having been neither existing treaty - which would have had to have been approved by the Congress beforehand - obliging these United States to engage in offensive military operations against the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party government of Iraq (the "Tikriti Mafia" mentioned above), and absent the declaration of a state of war by the Congress in 2003, prior to the invasion, the war against the internationally recognized sovereign government of that country (no matter how manifestly odious that government's officers and their practices unarguably had been) was criminally unconstitutional.
Remember, the U.S. Constitution was created to bind upon the officers of our federal government, specifically prescribingthe lawful powers of these Malevolent Jobholders may lawfully exercise, and the violation of those limitations is nothing more or less than criminal malfeasance in public office.
Time the 10th Amendment got an enforcement clause, the better to define such willful and deliberate malfeasances as treason, and therefore appropriately addressed as the capital crimes they most certainly are.
-- 30 --
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Tucci78
Griffin 63 - ''more knowledgeable'' 2/4/2012 10:11:25 PM
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"
I guess I should have read your original post a little more carefully then. As for me not falling into the 'more knowledgeable' category, guilty as charged. We can't all be military men, I'm not and at my stage in life never will be. But I am allowed to be an interested observer aren't I?"
I'm sorry if you interpreted that second post of mine as if to imply that I'm more knowledgeable about these matters than you are. My problem is much the same as your own, specifically to the effect that I don't know enough about modern-day foreign military forces to tell whether any such have decided to emulate certain features of the U.S. Army's notably successful tactical, organizational, and operational methods developed during our unconstitutional screwing-around in the Sandbox.
My appeal has been to those "more knowledgeable" readers here. I don't have a decent handle on how the various southeast "Asian Tiger" polities (Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, et alia), the Republic of Korea, or the nation of Japan are considering the results of combat operations in Mesopotamia and points thitherabouts as potential guidance for developments in their own armed forces.
It would seem to me logical that these lesser countries should have been observing quite keenly everything that's been going on in Central Asia since combat operations began in Afghanistan in 2001, not only with an eye toward how they might counter U.S. forces if such should become necessary (N.B. Communist China) but also to determine the extent to which they might be able to successfully emulate U.S. fighting doctrine themselves, and thus gain some of the "force multiplier" effects demonstrated in the conquest of Iraq.
But I'm nothing more than another feathermerchant, and what seems to me logical is not necessarily - by any means - what would seem practicable to a national government in Seoul or Tokyo or Singapore.
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Griffin63
2/5/2012 7:11:38 AM
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No offence taken my friend. Good luck ! :) |
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eldnah
2/5/2012 1:27:57 PM
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I was under the impression the Congress voted in Oct 2002 for a "Kinetic Military Action" in Iraq.......Senate 77-23.....House 296-133? Sounds constitutional to me.
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JFKY
Tucci 2/5/2012 1:41:57 PM
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Congress passed an AUTHORIZATION FOR THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE (AUMF). Functional equivalent of the Declaration of War...so Congress OK's fighting in Afghanistan and POTUS as CinC deploys the forces. You Pat Buchanan/Lew Rockwell types need to read a little more beyond the articles you like. |
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Tucci78
JFKY - ''Screw the Constitution! Long live the Empire!" 2/5/2012 3:13:38 PM
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"Congress passed an AUTHORIZATION FOR THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE (AUMF). Functional equivalent of the Declaration of War...so Congress OK's fighting in Afghanistan and POTUS as CinC deploys the forces. You Pat Buchanan/Lew Rockwell types need to read a little more beyond the articles you like." You neocon puckers don't seem to like the War Powers Clause (Article I, Section 9, Clause 11) at all, do you? And you sure as hell can't read that clause out of the Constitution, sweat and swear and scheme all you like. In both precedent common law at the time of the Constitution's composition, discussion (The Federalist Papers and, arguably more importantly, the arguments of the anti-Federalists, as well as in the various state ratification conventions), and final ratification - not to mention the body of law defining the nature of war itself - the exercise of the police power beyond the national jurisdiction is substantially different from the engagement of our nation's military forces in the invasion of a foreign country aimed at the subjugation or overthrow of that country's internationally recognized and therefore acknowledged government. To send warships and men to suppress pirates on the open seas (and to attack them on their bases ashore, if there is no controlling local or regional government to suppress those brigands' criminal actions) is an example of such a legitimate exercise of the police power as the Congress may lawfully delegate to the executive branch, but it is not war against a recognized foreign government. The military operations in Afghanistan from 2001 forward are essentially of such an "anti-piracy" character. Whatever the Taliban were running as an excuse for a government in that excuse for a country either was not functioning as a power serving to suppress unarguably aggressive criminal actions being undertaken by al Qaeda or was complicit (passively or actively) in that criminality. Precedent law at the time of the U.S. Constitution's formulation certainly held that such military operations were legitimate, and they continue so today. In the case of the attack upon Iraq in 2003, however, U.S. military forces were commanded by the President to enter the territory of that country and, in conjunction with other coalition nations, "...undertake operations aimed at the heart of [Iraq] and the destruction of her armed forces." That's war, not a simple exercise of the police powers as defined by either the U.S. Constitution or obtaining common law. If there were casus belli in October 2002 for the invasion of Iraq and the military overthrow of the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party government of that member state of the United Nations, then it was the duty of the U.S. Congress to declare the existence of a state of war between our republic and that government. To quote from Wiki-bloody-pedia: "A reasoned declaration of war justifies the resort to war by stating the grievances that have made peace intolerable and the remedies that will restore peace."
To call the cited "AUMF" the equivalent of a lawful declaration of war is just too hilariously friggin' much like the old joke about how many legs a donkey might have if you called his tail a leg. Calling a tail a leg, you jackass, doesn't make it a leg. Weaseling neocon crap doesn't get around the fact that the U.S. Constitution was constructed with (among other intentions) the deliberate and openly stated determination to make it extremely difficult for the Executive Branch to get into foreign wars. Remember, the Founders had plenty of experience with such ruinous war-waging adventurism as former subjects of the various kings of England. Instead of whining about the scholarship shoving these facts down your "We're the Cops of the World!" throat, you silly dork, try to come up with some sort of genuine argument that addresses the observations made by people like Pat Buchanan (who obviously pisses you off enormously) and Mr. Rockwell. |
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JFKY
2/5/2012 4:00:35 PM
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Sorry Tucci you are incorrect...No one cares about COMMON LAW...they care about the Constitution and the Court...so tell me about:
1) How WWII, against Germany is OK, because we invaded German with the intent of removing that government;
2) Or the US Civil War, the worst "war" ever fought by the US and NEVER declared.
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eldnah
2/5/2012 4:39:36 PM
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And Obama's use of military force against Libya was sanctioned by or even discussed with Congress in what way? Oh, that's right the French, Brits and Arab League said it was OK and that obviously supercedes the Constitution.
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Tucci78
JFKY - The war to destroy the Union 2/5/2012 5:10:54 PM
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"Or the US Civil War, the worst 'war' ever fought by the US and NEVER declared."
The fiction of the northern imperialists in 1861 was that the southern states' response to the Morrill Tariff (which was effectively nothing more than a second attempt to impose the 1828 " Tariff of Abominations......" that had nearly precipitated the same kind of divorcement decades before) was that the secession of these sovereign polities - a decision taken in order to preserve the purpose of the U.S. Constitution by declaring the illegitimacy of the majority's actions, and refusing submission to the criminal exactions of that majority - was a domestic insurrection.
That fiction required your mercantilist authoritarian brethren of that era to evade acknowledging the sovereignity of those seceding states, much as during the American Revolution the British Empire had stubbornly refused to acknowledge the sovereignity of the seceding American states until at last this was grudgingly formalized in the Treaty of Paris (1783), each of the thirteen several member states of our Confederation participating in that Treaty as separate political entities united in their belligerency against H.M. government.
Your clumsy, grasping, unspeakably corrupt railroad lawyer president of that era - Abe " The American Lenin......" Lincoln - had fumbled in his understanding of international law by declaring a blockade of the seceding states' coasts, which unarguably was a formal act of war, and thereby afforded the states of the southern Confederacy belligerent status in the eyes of foreign governments.
How profound must be the average neocon jerk's ignorance of the history of his own country to keep on yammering his idiocies?
Look in the mirror, putzie. And after that, try reading Lincoln's First Inaugural Address (March 4, 1861), in which he made it clear that the southern states could keep their slaves - indeed, there was political machinery grinding away to make it impossible for the abolition of chattel slavery even to be considered at the federal level - but the Morrill Tariff...... imposed by northern fiat was going to be collected.
If necessary, at gunpoint.
Lies piled upon evasions layered with duplicity and flagrant corruption.
Nice heritage you've got for yourself, JFKY.
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