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Subject: No good deed goes unpunished!
John    7/8/2001 7:35:31 AM
Speaking from the outside, I don't think that the French beat themselves up over Algeria as much as the Americans do over Vietnam. I think that the American willingness to air their dirty laundry in public puts the rest of us to shame and is a testament to the maturity of their democracy. Was the movement against the war in Algeria as big as the anti-Vietnam movement in the USA? (And that's putting to one side the argument that the Algerian War was a genuine colonial war pure and simple, but the reasons for American involvement in Vietnam were far more complicated). I don't accept that the US "had" to introduce the Marshall Plan. They could have gone back to their homes 2,000 mile away and left us to sort ourselves out. They gave billions because they thought it was the right thing to do. Would you prefer it if they had kept occupation forces in France to keep you in the Western camp? That's what the Russians would have done. You can put a cynical perspective on anything. You could argue that Mothers look after their children so that someone will look after them in their old age. In your world does any one ever do anything for the right reasons or is it all expediency and self interest. I can't disprove what you say, but that's not the world that I live in.
 
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malrait    RE:No good deed goes unpunished!   7/9/2001 12:06:56 AM
Well, sorry but you just have to accept to see facts in the face. You say "that is not the world you live in..." Well then wake up to the real world... Realpolitik means having a cynical approach to everything, and as John said it, masquerading everything into generosity. I know it may hurt, but one must free one's mind and consider the truth. That is just the way international relations work. Any sensible person knows that. All analysts from all countries in the world agree that the Marshall Plan was designed to help the US, not Europe. Give me any example, I told you, and we will argue about it. And please, we are talking about international relations, not personal relations, all right? Do not mix everything... Malrait
 
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John    RE:No good deed goes unpunished!   7/9/2001 1:08:33 PM
Malrait, I'll be honest I'm not involved in deciding Britain's foreign policy. I do not know if you are involved in deciding that of France. But on the assumption that you are not, what do you possibly know of the motives of politicians making these decisions? Be honest, you probably don't. My experience in life has been that people don't suddenly become machines when they get to work. So why do politicians? Don't they still have the same hopes, fears and aspirations that they have outside of work? Aren't they basically the same people? You ask me to live in the real world, as if you have some monopoly on truth, but not to refer to the experiences of my real life. I don't think so. No one is doubting that you can use sophistry to demonstrate how everything "could" have been done for selfish reasons. But you can't prove causality, all you can do is put an interpretation on events. No one doubts that the Marshall Plan was good news for the US, but you haven't produced a shred of evidence to prove exclusively selfish intent. What's more you reject the experience that you have in your personal life because it conflicts with your prejudice that all states act for the worst of reasons on every occasion. You have an opinion, it may be right in many instances, but you have absolutely not proved your point. You rubbish my suggestion that this is not how people act, without explaining why? Do politicians magically have all their good qualities removed as soon as they get power? Or do you have a cynical world view that is no more realistic than the opinion of your opponents' which you lambast?
 
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malrait    RE:No good deed goes unpunished!   7/10/2001 2:46:30 AM
The fact is that the leaders of a country cannot decide to be generous for nothing, as it obviously goes against the interest of that country... No, they do not become machines "as if by magic", in my opinion they are glad if they can help, but they can help only if they benefit from it. It is just to easy to say "you did not witness the decisional process" What is your view of the Marshall Plan decisional process? "Oh the poor guys, they look so miserable, let us just give them some cash, shall we?". That is utter nonsense. The Marshall Plan was the result of intense brainstorming about the geopolitical situation in Europe and in the world at the time of the cold war. The American leaders came up with the best solution, i,e the most beneficial to their country. Welcome to the real world Malrait
 
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