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Subject: Pipes as a starting point.
David Blue    11/22/2002 7:29:40 PM
Hi. http://www.meforum.org/article/pipes/103 This is a great article. But I decided to pick on the bits I disagree with. And of course I invite others to find fault with my opinions in turn, in order either to identify and correct my errors or find out what the main (but in my opinion insuffiently valid objections) would be, and start working on solutions to them. Or if what I say makes sense, feel free to say that too. A boost to the old ego has its place. :) Pipes' description is fine, but his prescription is no good. The prescription falls down in three key areas. (1) It relies on, and would ultimately make the like-minded nations hostage to, worthless allies who nobody will fight for. "Anti-Islamists today are weak, divided, intimidated, and generally ineffectual." Also, moderate Muslins are essentially free riders on militant Islam: not willing to take risk or pay costs, but still relentlessly opposed to America and the like-minded nations, and still beneficiaries in the long run (over generations) from the advance of Islam, by whatever means. What kind of strategy is it to rely on people whose sentiments and long-term self-interest calls for your enemy to win and for you to lose? Especially when those you want to be rescued by have no power to help you even if they wanted to? (2) Containment is a worthless idea, because the horse has already bolted. In Indonesia, in Africa and elsewhere, militant Islam is making great strides. Where Islam has power, for example in Pakistan, ethnic cleansing against non-Muslims is permanently changing the religious map of the world. People who know they are winning on many fronts won't have their will to fight broken because they are stalled here or there. Once you settle in containment, this defensive strategy filters down to operations, throwing away the advantages of the Western way of war and America's expensive war machine. The only way for us to fight effectively is to fight aggressively. (3) The kind of policies Pipes recommends fail his own test. Can you really give this stuff to a general, and tell him to do that? "Moderate Islam to the rescue" is not a military strategy, it's an obviously false hope that somebody else will solve the problems that we lack the will (and the demographic strength) to tackle. A more rational strategy would: * rely on non-Muslims whose self-interest requires that they fight. (Corollary: allies and potential allies willing to take on militant Islam must be allowed to gain by doing so.) * try to seize the initiative and fight aggressively, and * go for real, clear-cut gains at the expense of militant Islam. This approach begins (it does not end) with unreserved support for India in Kashmir, Russia in Chechnya, and Israel in the whole territory in which it is being compelled to fight for its survival. When when non-Muslims are taking turf from Muslims, when Muslims are converting out (with impunity) in large numbers (which will only happen under the protection of non-Muslim governments), when Saudi oil no longer buys Riyadh immunity, and when militant Islam's efforts to reverse the course of events by force have failed comprehensively, then we can expect to see a great change of heart in Islam, and then the war will be over. But as things stand, and as things would go with Pipes recommendations as our guide ... why on earth would you expect our enemies voluntarily to stop winning? David Blue Riyadh delenda est!
 
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muslim    RE:Pipes as a starting point.   11/23/2002 4:38:35 AM
I have just one comment, a translation of a verse from the Quran, "And they [non-muslims in general] will not be pleased with you [muslims]until you become one of them" I would never stop and claim that there is no problem in the muslim world today, and if you say the same, I will agree and prove you right; but, I would never say that one of the problems is that Muslims don't like America, or that America doesn't like Muslims. That is not a problem, it would be STUPID to want everyone to like you. So, when I talk about the solution, I don't even consider if America(ns) will like it or not. Keep that in mind as I state the solution, the only possible solution: MUSLIMS MUST CHANGE WHAT'S WITHIN THEMSELVES. The muslim world in general needs to go back to what Islam really says and stop giving loyalties to Saddam, Arafat, or any other human in the world (including Bush). We need go back and implement Islam the way it needs to be implemented. I end with a quote from Pipes: "This radicalism is today's enraged answer to the question that has bedeviled Muslims for 200 years, as the power and wealth that once blessed the world of Islam dribbled away over the five centuries before 1800 and other peoples and nations surged ahead. What went wrong? If Islam brings God's grace, as was widely assumed, why do Muslims fare so poorly? Muslims turned to a number of extremist ideologies in the modern period - from fascism and Leninism to pan-Arabism and pan-Syrianism - all in an attempt to answer that question by almost any means other than introspection, moderation, and self-help. Militant Islam has turned out to be the most popular, the most deluded, and the most disastrous of these ideologies." And to add to that, we muslims have forgotten to try one ideology, and that is Islam itself.
 
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american in Italy    RE:Pipes as a starting point.   11/23/2002 8:41:23 AM
I have just one comment, a translation of a verse from the Quran, "And they [non-muslims in general] will not be pleased with you [muslims]until you become one of them" I think you muslims have that turned around already. Should read... "And we [muslims in general] will not be pleased with them [non muslims]until you become like of us, or die."
 
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muslim    RE:Pipes as a starting point.   11/23/2002 5:14:39 PM
you think wrong
 
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american in Italy    RE:Pipes as a starting point.   11/24/2002 11:20:41 AM
No, should read "Muslims think wrong."
 
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muslim    RE:Pipes as a starting point.   11/29/2002 7:43:27 PM
I don't have time for this back and forth childish argument.
 
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